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The Pope

(94 Posts)
PedroPonyLikesCrisps Thu 28-Feb-13 08:09:21

The Pope is supposed to be a 'chosen' conduit to God..... So why is he elected by humans?

Gingerdodger Wed 27-Mar-13 19:41:42

Think Hitler gave up being a 'catholic' regardless of whether he attended church, thought he was one or not when he starting persecuting people and didn't practise forgiveness of others, love or compassion. That's not to say Christians are required to be perfect but there does come a point that your values are so far away from Christian ones that someone will cease to be one in practise.

That isn't to say someone cannot repent and come back into the fold.... a whole other conversation...

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Wed 27-Mar-13 19:32:18

Haha! Yeah you got me, big fluffy moustache like the Chuckle Brothers who are obviously also vigilante persecutors!

sieglinde Wed 27-Mar-13 13:43:45

Aha! [eager curious face] Now I understand... of course, of course.

Pedro, fess up. I mean, you're a pony, right? That has to mean - gasp - FACIAL HAIR!!!!

WhatKindofFool Wed 27-Mar-13 10:07:14

Stalin had a moustache. So did Hitler. I see a common thread here. It is not about religion but whether or not you have a moustache. Lets add Sadam Hussein, Gaddafi, Assad. Actually, thinking about it, Bin Laden had quite a lot of facial hair.

sieglinde Wed 27-Mar-13 08:10:46

And Pony, what about the Stalinist persecution of scientists? Was he a Catholic too? Or just an artist?

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Tue 26-Mar-13 23:03:06

Yes Grapes, I think artists must be responsible for all the bad in the world. Damn those artists and their evil brush strokes!

sieglinde Tue 26-Mar-13 14:01:43

And I also think change is nice - we could use the down to earth now...

WhatKindofFool Tue 26-Mar-13 13:28:15

Yes, seiglinde I know what you mean about Benedict.

NotTreadingGrapes Tue 26-Mar-13 08:29:50

Hitler could paint a bit as well.

Are all artists evil?

sieglinde Tue 26-Mar-13 08:26:57

Yes, I like them too. But I also liked Benedict. I thought he was/is a sweet, gentle old man, with a lovely shy smile. I wasn't sooo keen before he visited England, but I thought he deservedly won a lot of us over then. smile

WhatKindofFool Mon 25-Mar-13 17:53:24

sieglinde grin

By the way, I like the Popes tweets. They are much more down to earth than Benedict's. #keepingitreal

sieglinde Mon 25-Mar-13 14:28:38

Just letting you know I will be away from my desk till tomorrow - wouldn't want Pedro to think me frit grin

WhatKindofFool Mon 25-Mar-13 14:19:13

Pedro You are still on about Hitler being a Catholic. Why is this relevant? You are talking about the actions of one individual. We all know there are good and bad in every section of society.

Apparently, Hitler was also vegetarian....

sieglinde Mon 25-Mar-13 13:31:30

It's a long time after the Nuremberg laws, too. And not REMOTELY borne out by ANYTHING ELSE he said or did. He disavowed his RC childhood many times.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hitler in 1933 [contemporary with the N laws that exiled einstein, and therefore RELEVANT]

Adolf Hitler supported the Deutsche Christen church which rejected the Hebrew origins of the Gospel.[1] In his book Mein Kampf and in public speeches he often made statements that affirmed a belief in Christianity.[2][3] Prior to World War II Hitler had promoted "positive Christianity", a movement which purged Christianity of its Jewish elements and instilled it with Nazi philosophy.[4] According to the controversial collection of transcripts edited by Martin Bormann, titled Hitler's Table Talk, as well as the testimony of some intimates, Hitler had privately negative views of Christianity.

This just in - Hitler was a liar. Please go away and look at Kershaw.

I fear the RC church DOES give a crap about whether he went to church. No, you are NOT a Catholic if you don't go to mass and confession ONCE A YEAR AT LEAST. You cease to be one; you are de jure excommunicate, though no formal ceremony is required for reinclusion. Hitler would have known that precisely BECAUSE of his upbringing.

He did NOT therefore kill Jews in the name of the Almighty.

Any more than Stalin killed them in the name of militant atheism. ????

Now you want a list of Catholic martyrs to the Nazis. Well, why don't we start in Poland? That should keep us busy for months. Let's start here:

Eighty per cent of the Catholic clergy and five bishops of Warthegau were sent to concentration camps in 1939; 108 of them are regarded as blessed martyrs.[75] Religious persecution was not confined to this region: in Dachau concentration camp alone, 2,600 Catholic priests from 24 different countries were killed.[75] The Catholic Church was particularly suppressed in Poland: between 1939 and 1945, an estimated 3,000 members (18%) of the Polish clergy, were murdered; of these, 1,992 died in concentration camps

This seems odd behaviour to endorse for someone motivated by their devout Catholicism. Don't you think?

Or we could all hear your reply on Stalin's persecution of geneticists, at long last.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Mon 25-Mar-13 13:19:31

How about this one?

“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so”
[Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]

Sounds pretty conclusive to me.

Anyway, this seems to have degraded from a list of persecuted scientists to an argument about Hitler's beliefs (which are in absolutely no doubt). Who gives a crap if he went to mass or not? Are you seriously suggesting that a Catholic ain't a Catholic if he doesn't go to church? Because that it's pretty offensive, you might have forgotten that he had his hands full killing Jews in the name of the Almighty.

'Many Catholics passionately opposed the Nazis'. Really? So not all of them then, some supported him? How do you know who was right?

sieglinde Mon 25-Mar-13 13:05:08

What in this huge undigested bundle of downloads is specifically Catholic?

NOTHING AT ALL. In fact, one statement specifically praises Luther. The Nazis did see him as much more agreeably anti-semitic than the RC church.

They did try for rapprochements with the RC church because there were and are so many RCs in Germany. But Hitler never went to mass after his teens, never went to confession, never entered RC churches....

And the idea that these quotations prove that Einstein's persecution under the Nuremberg laws had ANYTHING to do with RELIGION is FARCICAL. Your argument is incredibly poorly supported. The Nuremberg laws had nothing to do with Xtianity of any kind.

Many Catholics passionately opposed the Nazis, and so did many Lutherans.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Mon 25-Mar-13 12:40:19

No, I was asked how Einstein was persecuted by religion. I was giving the answer. Where did I relate him to the whole of Christianity?

WhatKindofFool Mon 25-Mar-13 12:37:15

So Catholics are responsible for Nazis? LMAO.
There were plenty of Catholic priests that hid Jews from the Nazis by the way.

The Hitler argument is ridiculous. 1 evil man and you relate him to the whole of Christianity.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Mon 25-Mar-13 12:37:13

You'll notice many quotes from war time and Mein Kampf, so he hardly 'gave it up in his teens'

The Nazi regime was based firmly in Catholic ideals. Even their belts had the inscription "Gott mit uns" (God is with us).

It's a Catholic lie to disassociate with Hitler, especially as it was Catholics who aided the escape of several high ranking Nazi officers after the war.

But, even if he was an atheist, (and Starlings certainly was) you couldn't attribute his actions to atheist 'beliefs'. Whereas it's quite simple to draw parallels with religion and Catholicism.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Mon 25-Mar-13 12:32:09

Hitler WAS a Catholic:

“The anti-Semitism of the new movement (Christian Social movement)
was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

“I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty
Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord’s work.”

[Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]

“I have followed [the Church] in giving our party program the
character of unalterable finality, like the Creed. The Church has
never allowed the Creed to be interfered with. It is fifteen hundred
years since it was formulated, but every suggestion for its
amendment, every logical criticism, or attack on it, has been
rejected. The Church has realized that anything and everything can be
built up on a document of that sort, no matter how contradictory or
irreconcilable with it. The faithful will swallow it whole, so long
as logical reasoning is never allowed to be brought to bear on it.”

[Adolf Hitler, from Rauschning, The Voice of Destruction, pp. 239-40]

“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a
fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded
by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and
summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest
not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian
and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord
at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the
Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight
against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with
deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact
that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As
a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have
the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is
anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is
the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty
to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and
work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only
for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning
and see these men standing in their queues and look into their
pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very
devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two
thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people
are plundered and exposed.”

[Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich on April 12, 1922, countering a
political opponent, Count Lerchenfeld, who opposed antisemitism on
his personal Christian feelings. Published in "My New Order", quoted
in Freethought Today April 1990]

“I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of
the Almighty Creator.”

[Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 46]

“What we have to fight for…is the freedom and independence of the
fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission
assigned to it by the Creator.”

[Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 125]

“This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the
practical existence of a religious belief.”

[Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.152]

“And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his
estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove
those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God.”

[Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.174]

“Catholics and Protestants are fighting with one another… while the
enemy of Aryan humanity and all Christendom is laughing up his sleeve.”

[Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.309]

“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so”

[Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]

“Any violence which does not spring from a spiritual base, will be
wavering and uncertain. It lacks the stability which can only rest in
a fanatical outlook.”

[Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, p. 171]

“I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn
splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the
abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my
father, the highest and most desirable ideal.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 1]

“I was not in agreement with the sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from
time to time I read arguments which gave me some food for thought. At
all events, these occasions slowly made me acquainted with the man
and the movement, which in those days guided Vienna’s destinies: Dr.
Karl Lueger and the Christian Social Party.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 2]

“…the unprecedented rise of the Christian Social Party… was to
assume the deepest significance for me as a classical object of study.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

“As long as leadership from above was not lacking, the people
fulfilled their duty and obligation overwhelmingly. Whether
Protestant pastor or Catholic priest, both together and particularly
at the first flare, there really existed in both camps but a single
holy German Reich, for whose existence and future each man turned to
his own heaven.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

“Political parties has nothing to do with religious problems, as long
as these are not alien to the nation, undermining the morals and
ethics of the race; just as religion cannot be amalgamated with the
scheming of political parties.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

“For the political leader the religious doctrines and institutions of
his people must always remain inviolable; or else has no right to be
in politics, but should become a reformer, if he has what it takes!

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

“In nearly all the matters in which the Pan-German movement was
wanting, the attitude of the Christian Social Party was correct and

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

“It [Christian Social Party] recognized the value of large-scale
propaganda and was a virtuoso in influencing the psychological
instincts of the broad masses of its adherents.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

“If Dr. Karl Lueger had lived in Germany, he would have been ranked
among the great minds of our people.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3, about the leader of
the Christian Social movement]

“Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy
enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an
overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted
to live at this time.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 5]

“I had so often sung ‘Deutschland u:ber Alles’ and shouted ‘Heil’ at
the top of my lungs, that it seemed to me almost a belated act of
grace to be allowed to stand as a witness in the divine court of the
eternal judge and proclaim the sincerity of this conviction.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 5]

“Only in the steady and constant application of force lies the very
first prerequisite for success. This persistence, however, can always
and only arise from a definite spiritual conviction. Any violence
which does not spring from a firm, spiritual base, will be wavering
and uncertain.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 5]

“I soon realized that the correct use of propaganda is a true art
which has remained practically unknown to the bourgeois parties. Only
the Christian- Social movement, especially in Lueger’s time achieved
a certain virtuosity on this instrument, to which it owed many of its

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 6]

“Once again the songs of the fatherland roared to the heavens along
the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord’s grace
smiled on His ungrateful children.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 7, reflecting on World
War I]

“The more abstractly correct and hence powerful this idea will be,
the more impossible remains its complete fulfillment as long as it
continues to depend on human beings… If this were not so, the
founders of religion could not be counted among the greatest men of
this earth… In its workings, even the religion of love is only the
weak reflection of the will of its exalted founder; its significance,
however, lies in the direction which it attempted to give to a
universal human development of culture, ethics, and morality.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 8]

“To them belong, not only the truly great statesmen, but all other
great reformers as well. Beside Frederick the Great stands Martin
Luther as well as Richard Wagner.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 8]

“The fight against syphilis demands a fight against prostitution,
against prejudices, old habits, against previous conceptions, general
views among them not least the false prudery of certain circles. The
first prerequisite for even the moral right to combat these things is
the facilitation of earlier marriage for the coming generation. In
late marriage alone lies the compulsion to retain an institution
which, twist and turn as you like, is and remains a disgrace to
humanity, an institution which is damned ill-suited to a being who
with his usual modesty likes to regard himself as the ‘image’ of God.”

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 10]

sieglinde Mon 25-Mar-13 10:21:33

You might also want to look at the violently secularist Stalinist regime's persecution of scientists, with its particular violence against geneticists:

sieglinde Mon 25-Mar-13 09:24:16

I didn't want to bring in Hitler, and I didn't. You did, with Einstein.

HITLER WAS NOT A CATHOLIC. He gave up being a Catholic in his teens. Go look at Ian Kershaw's biography. And stripping Jews of their posts under the Nuremberg laws was NOT a religious action against science.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Mon 25-Mar-13 09:17:58

Ok, if you really want to bring Hitler in to the equation. He was a Catholic and built the Nazi empire on Christian doctrine. He persecuted the Jews because he believed that God had called upon him to fight them.

Einstein was a (non practicing) Jew and was stripped of his post in Berlin following the rise of the Hitler regime.

sieglinde Mon 25-Mar-13 08:18:36

But al-Razi is a hero to Islam... and even longer ago than Galileo, and so too is Servetus longer ago (1500s).

How was Einstein - this is Albert, I assume? - persecuted by RELIGION as opposed to by the viciously antisemitic regimes he lived under? Ditto Domagk, who was forced to refuse the Nobel because the Nazis were pissed off that it had been awarded to one of their enemies... and how are these cases in ANY WAY relevant to the churches in 2013?

You aren't by ANY chance seeing Nazism as Xtian, are you? I hope to God I've misunderstood you.

Is Oldenburg Claes Oldenburg? (Surely not.. I confess bewilderment.)

I never said that Lemaitre was persecuted in any way analogous to the Inquisition. [Makes patient face]. I said that he showed you could look at the stars and glory in the reality of the universe and be a CHRSTIAN. I also said that he met with some of the belligerent bigotry YOU are displaying.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Sun 24-Mar-13 16:00:00

Rhazes, Servetus, Oldenburg, Domagk, Einstein. But the bigger issue is that you assumed because I didn't mention them in the first place, then I must not wonder you believe in god.

It wasn't the religious bias at all, it was the fact that he attributed the 'primordial atom' (which wouldn't have been an atom anyway) had parallels with the story of Genesis. Some people didn't like that, some people jumped on it as 'proof' of god, etc. but I don't believe he was persecuted in the way that religious governments have been capable in the past when they had the power.

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