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The Pope

(94 Posts)
PedroPonyLikesCrisps Thu 28-Feb-13 08:09:21

The Pope is supposed to be a 'chosen' conduit to God..... So why is he elected by humans?

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Mon 25-Mar-13 12:37:13

You'll notice many quotes from war time and Mein Kampf, so he hardly 'gave it up in his teens'

The Nazi regime was based firmly in Catholic ideals. Even their belts had the inscription "Gott mit uns" (God is with us).

It's a Catholic lie to disassociate with Hitler, especially as it was Catholics who aided the escape of several high ranking Nazi officers after the war.

But, even if he was an atheist, (and Starlings certainly was) you couldn't attribute his actions to atheist 'beliefs'. Whereas it's quite simple to draw parallels with religion and Catholicism.

WhatKindofFool Mon 25-Mar-13 12:37:15

So Catholics are responsible for Nazis? LMAO.
There were plenty of Catholic priests that hid Jews from the Nazis by the way.

The Hitler argument is ridiculous. 1 evil man and you relate him to the whole of Christianity.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Mon 25-Mar-13 12:40:19

No, I was asked how Einstein was persecuted by religion. I was giving the answer. Where did I relate him to the whole of Christianity?

sieglinde Mon 25-Mar-13 13:05:08

What in this huge undigested bundle of downloads is specifically Catholic?

NOTHING AT ALL. In fact, one statement specifically praises Luther. The Nazis did see him as much more agreeably anti-semitic than the RC church.

They did try for rapprochements with the RC church because there were and are so many RCs in Germany. But Hitler never went to mass after his teens, never went to confession, never entered RC churches....

And the idea that these quotations prove that Einstein's persecution under the Nuremberg laws had ANYTHING to do with RELIGION is FARCICAL. Your argument is incredibly poorly supported. The Nuremberg laws had nothing to do with Xtianity of any kind.

Many Catholics passionately opposed the Nazis, and so did many Lutherans.

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Mon 25-Mar-13 13:19:31

How about this one?

“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so”
[Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]

Sounds pretty conclusive to me.

Anyway, this seems to have degraded from a list of persecuted scientists to an argument about Hitler's beliefs (which are in absolutely no doubt). Who gives a crap if he went to mass or not? Are you seriously suggesting that a Catholic ain't a Catholic if he doesn't go to church? Because that it's pretty offensive, you might have forgotten that he had his hands full killing Jews in the name of the Almighty.

'Many Catholics passionately opposed the Nazis'. Really? So not all of them then, some supported him? How do you know who was right?

sieglinde Mon 25-Mar-13 13:31:30

It's a long time after the Nuremberg laws, too. And not REMOTELY borne out by ANYTHING ELSE he said or did. He disavowed his RC childhood many times.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hitler in 1933 [contemporary with the N laws that exiled einstein, and therefore RELEVANT]

Adolf Hitler supported the Deutsche Christen church which rejected the Hebrew origins of the Gospel.[1] In his book Mein Kampf and in public speeches he often made statements that affirmed a belief in Christianity.[2][3] Prior to World War II Hitler had promoted "positive Christianity", a movement which purged Christianity of its Jewish elements and instilled it with Nazi philosophy.[4] According to the controversial collection of transcripts edited by Martin Bormann, titled Hitler's Table Talk, as well as the testimony of some intimates, Hitler had privately negative views of Christianity.

This just in - Hitler was a liar. Please go away and look at Kershaw.

I fear the RC church DOES give a crap about whether he went to church. No, you are NOT a Catholic if you don't go to mass and confession ONCE A YEAR AT LEAST. You cease to be one; you are de jure excommunicate, though no formal ceremony is required for reinclusion. Hitler would have known that precisely BECAUSE of his upbringing.

He did NOT therefore kill Jews in the name of the Almighty.

Any more than Stalin killed them in the name of militant atheism. ????

Now you want a list of Catholic martyrs to the Nazis. Well, why don't we start in Poland? That should keep us busy for months. Let's start here:

Eighty per cent of the Catholic clergy and five bishops of Warthegau were sent to concentration camps in 1939; 108 of them are regarded as blessed martyrs.[75] Religious persecution was not confined to this region: in Dachau concentration camp alone, 2,600 Catholic priests from 24 different countries were killed.[75] The Catholic Church was particularly suppressed in Poland: between 1939 and 1945, an estimated 3,000 members (18%) of the Polish clergy, were murdered; of these, 1,992 died in concentration camps

This seems odd behaviour to endorse for someone motivated by their devout Catholicism. Don't you think?

Or we could all hear your reply on Stalin's persecution of geneticists, at long last.

WhatKindofFool Mon 25-Mar-13 14:19:13

Pedro You are still on about Hitler being a Catholic. Why is this relevant? You are talking about the actions of one individual. We all know there are good and bad in every section of society.

Apparently, Hitler was also vegetarian....

sieglinde Mon 25-Mar-13 14:28:38

Just letting you know I will be away from my desk till tomorrow - wouldn't want Pedro to think me frit grin

WhatKindofFool Mon 25-Mar-13 17:53:24

sieglinde grin

By the way, I like the Popes tweets. They are much more down to earth than Benedict's. #keepingitreal

sieglinde Tue 26-Mar-13 08:26:57

Yes, I like them too. But I also liked Benedict. I thought he was/is a sweet, gentle old man, with a lovely shy smile. I wasn't sooo keen before he visited England, but I thought he deservedly won a lot of us over then. smile

NotTreadingGrapes Tue 26-Mar-13 08:29:50

Hitler could paint a bit as well.

Are all artists evil?

WhatKindofFool Tue 26-Mar-13 13:28:15

Yes, seiglinde I know what you mean about Benedict.

sieglinde Tue 26-Mar-13 14:01:43

And I also think change is nice - we could use the down to earth now...

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Tue 26-Mar-13 23:03:06

Yes Grapes, I think artists must be responsible for all the bad in the world. Damn those artists and their evil brush strokes!

sieglinde Wed 27-Mar-13 08:10:46

And Pony, what about the Stalinist persecution of scientists? Was he a Catholic too? Or just an artist?

WhatKindofFool Wed 27-Mar-13 10:07:14

Stalin had a moustache. So did Hitler. I see a common thread here. It is not about religion but whether or not you have a moustache. Lets add Sadam Hussein, Gaddafi, Assad. Actually, thinking about it, Bin Laden had quite a lot of facial hair.

sieglinde Wed 27-Mar-13 13:43:45

Aha! [eager curious face] Now I understand... of course, of course.

Pedro, fess up. I mean, you're a pony, right? That has to mean - gasp - FACIAL HAIR!!!!

PedroPonyLikesCrisps Wed 27-Mar-13 19:32:18

Haha! Yeah you got me, big fluffy moustache like the Chuckle Brothers who are obviously also vigilante persecutors!

Gingerdodger Wed 27-Mar-13 19:41:42

Think Hitler gave up being a 'catholic' regardless of whether he attended church, thought he was one or not when he starting persecuting people and didn't practise forgiveness of others, love or compassion. That's not to say Christians are required to be perfect but there does come a point that your values are so far away from Christian ones that someone will cease to be one in practise.

That isn't to say someone cannot repent and come back into the fold.... a whole other conversation...

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