Atheism & cubs/scouts?

[Himalaya]

DS wants to join the cubs. He says he is fine with saying 'do his duty to god and the queen' if that is what it takes to get in. I guess that is ok, as it is a meaningless statement if god doesn't exist and you have no duty to the queen. I do resent that he has to say it.

They are only accepting new kids if parents are willing to become Assistant Leaders. I said ok. I quite like the idea of the camping and activities etc... but reading into it I wonder 1) if they will have me as an atheist and 2) if i really can be involved if they expect adults to lead prayers and all kinds of other religious stuff.

Has anyone got any experience or advice here?

Is it really religious or is it just tradition?

[Himalaya]

Maybe I need to post this somewhere with more traffic?

[CPtart]

Both my sons are in cubs/beavers and imo the benefits of the opportunities/experiences it brings far outweighs any religious beliefs you may or may not have. We are (non-practising) catholics and there are prayers on pack nights, saluting the flag, church parades... all that sort of thing. No-one ever questions DS non- attendance at the church parades but it may be an issue if you are a leader!

I certainly wouldn't deny your DS the opportunity to join if thats what he wants just because of your religious concerns. Just shut your ears to the bits you don't believe in and enjoy the fun stuff!

[NotALondoner]

Not all groups are religious as such, to be in the Scouting movement I think you have to believe in some 'higher being', but isn't Jedi a religion now? Look for a group that is doing the bare minimum religion wise and putting all their energies into muddy camps, soggy biscuits and plenty of fun.

[Himalaya]

Thanks CP, NAL - yes that's what I want: mud, biscuits, minimal religion.... I guess I'll just have to ask them how religious the group is.

[technodad]

The scouts do my head in. I find it ridiculous that they will accept anyone who believes in make-believe and refuse to allow kids to join unless they either believe or pretend to believe (i.e are hypocrites). The latter is hardly setting a good example.

I remember reading on the scout website that the two things that prohibit an adult bring a scout leader are being an athirst or a pedo!

[FlibberdeGibbet]

I'm a cub leaders, and religion doesn't play a huge part in my life. I'm not an atheist, but not a churchgoer either.

It is true that cubs and leaders have to make the promise (to do my duty / To God and the Queen). I see the promise as more about how you behave as a person - ie respect for yourself, and for other people, which is basically the underlying ethos of most religions.

In our cub pack we start each session saluting the union flag, and end with short prayer that is thought up and delivered by the "on duty" cub for that night - it is usually something very simple, such as "dear God, please look after the homeless". I see this as teaching the cubs to think about other people less fortunate than themselves. we do attend church services (the 2 main ones a remembrance day, where the pack plays an active part in the service, and St George's day, which is a biggie in the Scouting movement) We encourage our cubs to attend, and it is an unspoken expectation that leaders will attend if at all possible.

I would suggesthimalaya that you have an informal chat to the cub leader, to gauge how "churchy" the pack is. If you were joining our pack as a leader, I would welcome you with open arms (we are always desperate for help, and have a waiting list of children who can't join as we don't have enough leaders), and I would find a middle path that would enable you to get stuck into the muddy bits, whilst quietly sidestepping any overtly religious bits that you felt uncomfortable with.

Oh, and technodad, essentially the scouting movement is a church movement, although it has broadened out since it's inception, so as such they can choose who to admit. There's always the Woodcraft folk for any determined atheists, so there is a choice

[technodad]

FlibberdeGibblet said "It is true that cubs and leaders have to make the promise (to do my duty / To God and the Queen). I see the promise as more about how you behave as a person - ie respect for yourself, and for other people, which is basically the underlying ethos of most religions."

You imply that if you are not part of "most religions" that you are not capable of respecting yourself and other people, which is clearly utter crap.

As you say, they used to be a church group, and then they broardened to allow ANYONE with an imaginary friend to join, because the term "god" can mean different things to different people. Of course they can choose to admit who they want, all I am saying is that they (as an organisation) are offensive, in that they descriminate against the non-religious!

"There's always the Woodcraft folk for any determined atheists, so there is a choice"

My point isn't about the fact that there are alternatives, my point is that an organisation that has a foundation based upon doing good things is hypercritical and that it is insulting and offensive. Would it be acceptable to ban homosexual leaders, or black kids - I suspect not!

But maybe you disagree?

[FlibberdeGibbet]

I must have missed the bit where I said that atheists / agnostics were incapable of self respect and respect for others. IF I had said that, then that would have been "utter crap". But I didn't. Please re-read my post more carefully.

Look, scouting is a church based organisation. That won't be everyone's cup of tea, but it's not correct to call it "discriminatory" - just as a church would require a belief from its members. I don't think that's insulting or offensive.

I do think a more religious person than I might find your reference to "imaginary friends" offensive though. Belief in God is important to some people, and to belittle that is disrespectful to their views.

[technodad]

Hi Flibber.

I did read your post carefully, I even quoted it. You said that the promise is about how an individual behaves and that you cannot make the promise without believing in "god". This implies that the Scouting Association believes that non believers cannot join because they are not capable of behaving correctly (otherwise why would they ban non-believers). Clearly you did not say it directly, but it is implicit in what you say.

Scouting used to be a church based organisation, but it is not a church organisation anymore. If the scouting organisation said very clearly "We are a christian organisation, but everyone is welcome" (i.e. like the church does), then that would be fine. The church does not ban people from attending a service or a wedding because they are unwilling to say the lords prayer, it lets people take part in the elements that they want (in the desperate hope they they can brainwash people into giving money). The church is not discriminatory in this regard (clearly it is massively discriminatory in many other regards, but this is another sordid subject all together).

The Scouting Association is discriminatory organisation because it will accept ANYONE, except one group within society (whereas the church is just one group within society)

A good analogy might be if a local village youth group in a well-off area letting any child join except the children who's parents are on benefits, or a group in an asian community that didn't allow white kids to join. Both of these examples are wholly unacceptable.

Why is it that people can happily discriminate on the grounds of religion like the Scouts, when it is rightly illegal to do it for other reasons (like skin colour or perceived social status)?

"I do think a more religious person than I might find your reference to "imaginary friends" offensive though. Belief in God is important to some people, and to belittle that is disrespectful to their views."

I find many many things that some religious people say deeply offensive (on things like abortion, homosexuality, discrimination against women). I may not agree with their views, but I defend their freedom to speak them (and I trust they do the same for me too!). Despite the fact that my views are founded on facts and evidence......

[DioneTheDiabolist]

The promise is to do one's duty to God and the queen therefore you can't really be making a promise unless that's what you believe. There is no allusion, implicit or explicit, that athiests Are incapable of respecting themselves or others.

The scouts may no longer be church based, but they are faith based. Would you be as pissed off with them if they were called something like Youth Faith in Action?

All clubs are discriminatory in one sense or another, thats what makes a club a club. Do you think that no faith group should exist because it discriminates against those of no faith?

You have facts and evidence that god is imaginary? Wow. Can I see it?

[technodad]

Dione said "The promise is to do one's duty to God and the queen therefore you can't really be making a promise unless that's what you believe. There is no allusion, implicit or explicit, that athiests Are incapable of respecting themselves or others"

I think you are missing the point. My point is the Scouts sell themselves as an inclusive group, but they are not. If you look on their website, you have to dig pretty deep to find out that you must be of faith, in fact, if you type "Faith" into their website search, you only get information regarding their membership policy with the 18th result (showing as 14% relevant). Why is it's faith only membership policy buried so deep. If they were called "Youth Faith in Action" then it might at least be a little clearer!

If I go to a church website, they state their denomination and principles on the homepage, but the scouts homepage (and all top level pages) make no mention.

I can go on Jury Duty and ask for a different oath if I don't want to lie and swear to a non-existant god, so why can't my child do it at Scouts, and then learn about different faiths from his friends in Scouts (and maybe pick one if he wants)?

"All clubs are discriminatory in one sense or another, thats what makes a club a club. Do you think that no faith group should exist because it discriminates against those of no faith?"

Please list all the other youth groups which operate on an national (or international) scales (or even local for that matter), that have a policy of banning membership of one category of children from within society, whilst permitting ALL others.

You have facts and evidence that god is imaginary? Wow. Can I see it?

I think we have been here before, and it was probably unfair of me to raise this within this thread, because it is not directly related to the subject. I am happy to debate it again on another thread if you want to.

[Himalaya]

Techno, Flibber and Dione -

Interesting points for a late night pub discussion, but probably not one I am going to get into. I tend to agree with Technodad that it is wrong for an organisation to exclude just one kind of person, but since my son wants to do the Scout thing I am going to have to keep my head down about that.

[nomoreminibreaks]

I'll keep out of the debate above, but I was in cubs/scouts when I was young and my mum joined as a leader too. We're not religious in our family and that never seemed to be a problem at all. Of course we were aware of the promise to god and to the queen but it was something we said rather than taking at face value.

I suppose that was just our troop so different troops might take the religious aspect more seriously. Maybe worth asking the leader?

[GrimmaTheNome]

Him - there was a massive thread about atheists and scouts recently, in the context of a child who couldn't become a full member because he felt unable to make the promise. The relevance is to your question is that there were several atheists who did help out- the one exception (other than paedophiles) was to 'avowed atheists' being leaders. So...it would seem that avowed atheists can help out but not be leaders, and atheists willing to adopt a 'don't ask, don't tell' stance could be leaders. I don't think there was any mention of 'assistant leaders'.

It was also apparent that different troops have different levels of church affiliation.

[technodad]

I was in cubs and scouts when I was a kid too. I just said the god promise thing (just like when they made me say it at school etc). I didn't know I wasn't allowed to believe (and kept it secret that it made no sense and also that the Sunday school teacher was creepy).

Why is it that kids have to pretend to believe in god all the time, why can't they just be given the freedom to believe in what they want (I am sure this should be a human right, but Gove and Pickles don't seem to agree)

My kids don't believe in god, and my eldest decided he wouldn't join beavers because he didn't want to tell a lie (by promising to a god he didn't believe in).

The beaver leader said "he doesn't have to mean it, but he must say the words or he can't join". What an appalling lesson to teach a kid, it is OK to lie to get something you want, and you will miss out if you don't copy everyone else. I was very proud of my 6 year old's decision. it is an experience I hope will stand him in good stead when he is offered drugs for the first time and chooses to say "no" even if he is the only one!

So if huge numbers of scouting members just lie, and don't believe, then they should either throw them out (for breaking their deeply held promise), or modernise and change their promise!

[technodad]

Grimma

If that thread was an AIBU thread about a year ago, then it may well have been my thread.

[exexpat]

The British Humanist Association has been campaigning about this issue for a while. There is also the issue that they won't accept openly gay scouts.

Luckily neither of my DCs have ever been particularly keen on joining, as it's not an organisation I'd be very comfortable with. One reason I only lasted a few months in guides (more than 30 years ago) was that I was already a convinced atheist and there was far too much prayer-writing going on.

[exexpat]

This was the recent case of the boy who was refused membership for being atheist.

[technodad]

Ah, so they are even more discriminatory than I gave them discredit!

Who was it on this thread who said they weren't discriminatory? Maybe you were even more wrong than I thought!

[GrimmaTheNome]

techno, no, it was more recent than that.

exex - from what I read in the course of the recent thread they shouldn't be discriminating against gay people any more. It really is just atheists and people who won't mouth the promise (I guess a youth who was serious about repblicanism also wouldn't be able to be a proper member).

[technodad]

Although it is fair to say that the Queen does actually exist! I saw her jumping from that helicopter during the Olympic opening ceremony.

[exexpat]

My apologies - after a quick google it turns out that the anti-gay stance is just the US wing, where they seem pretty adamant about it - but the UK organisation is rather more enlightened about it. so that's good - I wonder why they can't be equally flexible about faith?

[technodad]

I am glad to hear it (although not about the USA equivilant).