Dont Flame me, im emotional as it is. I can't cope with DD

[AshamedAwfulMum]

im a reg. (red rugs, judge flounce,Knicker elastic for crimbo, sausage rolls, fruit shoot and grapes at the till)

I am sat her in tears because despite being very highly qualified in dealing with children with challenging behaviour i just cannot cope with DD.

She is 4. she has an older brother who has ASD and yet i have never felt so useless as i do with her.

I can't explain it really. she is incredibly clingy but also very manipulative( how the fuck can a 4 year odl be manipulative) she throws tantrums about everything, she screams over the slightest thing, she is spitefull to her brother and has started to be agressive.

I cannot even go to the toilet without her kicking the door and screaming.

it all sounds so trivial written down. She is 4 FFS! and here i am in a right state.

I have actually said that i hate her and if im honest i have had to walk away from her because i have wanted to hit her. I never have and never would of course, but jus the fact that i have felt myself want to disgusts me.

I know that some of it may be that i am just stressed over other stuff (don't really want to divulge as it would give me away - in case you havent already worked out who i am)

I actually spoke to my mum about it today because i was tempted to call in SS myself.
she goes to pre school for 2 hours a day and if im honest i actually feel my mood depress slightly when it comes to collecting her.

I can't stand being around my daughter and it is killing me. I love her with all my heart, that goes without saying. but she really is horrible most of the time...but only ever for me.

Today for example, i collect her from pre school. she comes running up to me for a cuddle and kiss like always. i pick her up and we have a cuddle, she says "i want a sausage roll" i said that i didn't have any but we cold go to the shop and see what we could find. she erupted into a tantrum. screaming and crying and yanking at my bag.
as we walked out of the door one of teh staff asked her if she wanted a cake (someone had had a birthday) instantly she returned to sweetness and light and took a cake, said thank you and smiled.
as soon as we were outsde and teh door was shut she was back into full swing tantrum.

We went to the shop just outside the pre school, she chose her sausage roll. tehn she started screaming that she wanted them opened. i said that we had to pay first. more screaming and shouting that she wanted them open, standing in front of me tryimg to push me back.
i tried distracting her by asking if she wanted a drink as well. we walked to teh fridge with teh drinks and i asked her whch one she would like (she was still whingy) finally she stopped, scowled and said "just buy me one"
(it is not unusual for her to be this rude to me - she really is like a stroppy teenager a lot of the time)
I got her one of those capri drink's (that or cola. crappy shop) when we were walking out she started again whinging abotu opening them. i went to open her drink when she screamed she wanted to do it, i gave it to her and it squirted at her when she put the straw in. she now screams "thanks a lot" and is whinging some more.
we get to teh car and i she is tantruming about not wanting to get in her seat, i push her in and put the straps on, lots of kicking and screamin.

screaming all teh way home, refuses to get out of the car. i drag her (not quite drag her buy ynwim) out of teh car and bring her inside. she slumps in teh hall and continues whinging and shouting she hates me and wants her dad (he is a twunty arsehole)

i go to the kitchen and blub.

she is like this all day every day.
I do not know how much longer i can go on like this. every time i think its a stage and she will grow out of it she deos....but the next stage always seems worse!

please dont flame me...im not usually fragile but i am tonight

[Ewe]

No experience (yet!) as my DD is only 7 months but couldn't read and run.

You sound really stressed I know this isn't very MN but here, have a hug!

Try and remember that you are a great Mum for caring this much.

[BetteNoire]

No-one is going to flame you.
You must be exhausted by all the tantrums.
How do you usually discipline her?

[SilkCutMama]

Hello darling - this sounds truly hideous

Please know yu are not alone. Well done you for such a literate post when you are so clearly very upset and at the end of your tether

Your post really does describe so well what you are going through and it sounds awful

Just in case you are the huggy type, here is one >>>>>>amum

[dizzywitches]

oh no how awful for you, you must be shattered

has something happened recently to upset her? is she happily settled at pre school?
is her dad (the twunty arsehole) still around and could help out a bit more?

I don't really know what to say, sorry

[neolara]

Poor you. Sounds bloody hard work. I'm not surprised you are feeling down. Behaviour like that on a daily basis must be realy waring.

Has her behaviour always been like this? When is it better?

[AshamedAwfulMum]

if im honest she isnt normaly very naughty so just a telling off will surfice. but lately her rudeness has forced me to take away toys or stop her doing something she wants to do.

I am a big advocate of the ignore tantrums line of thinking but these are literally all day long.
I do ignore her but sometimes it really is all i can do not to throttle her.

I am honestly terrifed that im going to snap and hurt her.

[Lauriefairycake]

You can do this, you said you can do it with other children with challenging behaviour

Because you know how to do this I suggest you write down all the things you would advise someone to do (like ignoring all the whingeyness, walking away, completely enforced naughty step/consequences for aggression/lots of praise for tiny things she does right/)

[SilkCutMama]

You will not snap and hurt her

You are a good mum

What can you do to make your day easier?

Can she stay longer at nursery?

Can you se friends/family straight after?

Can othr people pick her up and have her for some of the afternoon?

[thisisyesterday]

gosh, you sound like you have a lot on your place, and you have my every sympathy because when ds1 is in one of those moods he is unbearable.
but you know what? I think maybe she is behaving like this partly because you're letting her?

ie, she demands a sausage roll. throws a temper tantrum. and gets one.
she then has another tantrum over having it open and gets a drink for her troubles?

you need to maybe re-evaluate how you communicate with her, and set some boundaries.

ie, if ds1 said to me "I want a sausage roll", I would say something like ok, well I would like you to ask me nicely (for starters)

then if he had a tantrum in the shop I would talk to him very calmly and just say "ds1, I will not listen to you screaming and shouting. you can calm down and stop that right now, or we can go straight home"

if he carried on, he would get picked up and taken home.

If you find that dd needs a snack and drink when you pick her up from pre-school then take something with you. much easier than negotiating shops!

[Lauriefairycake]

x-posted

the fact you are so concerned you will snap and hit her speaks volumes about how much you care and it makes it less likely.

wanting to throttle her is perfectly ok so at least acknowledge to yourself (not in a guilty/beat yourself up kind of way) that you are blisteringly angry and allow the feelings. Just try not to do it, it will just make you feel worse.

[toomuchmonthatendofthemoney]

Have you spoken to her pre-school teachers and found out if she behaves like this with them? If not, sounds like she has got you over a barrel and knows it. Of course she can be manipulative, in terms of knowing what you will put up with.

You say you are very experienced in dealing with children, can you distance yourself enough to try to apply some techniques to her, kind of treat her like a case study? so if a parent came to you with a similar child, what would you recommend? Is she jealous of attention given to her older sibling?

Personally i would tell her firmly that its time to talk to you politely and with respect. so in the example above, if she was tantrumming about the opening the sausage roll, i wouldn't distract her with a drink (rewarding bad behaviour?) but tell her unless she calms down and waits for you to pay, you will give the roll back to the lady, and so on. We all know the rules, set the boundaries and stick to them, etc etc hard to do when you're worn down by bad behaviour, but i think she's old enough to understand this can't go on. Good luck, i hope you find some strength to start afresh.

[dizzywitches]

ok so you say she's not normally very naughty so could you have a few days of really really praising the good behaviour?

naughty step? not getting to watch favourite programme?
promising a huge treat at the end of the week for good behaviour?

am I grasping at straws here?
I tell dd1 she gets her toe nails painted at end of week if she's been good small I know but she LOVES it and it seems to work

[Hassled]

What a bloody nightmare for you. Firstly, it really is a stage. She won't be like this at 6, or at 16. It won't always be that bad.

Is there any way you can just get a break from her for a few days? Would the twunty arsehole father have her? Or grandparents? That would give you a chance to take stock and come up with an action plan, which could be:

a)talking to her about how she makes you feel, how you hate all the arguments and that sometimes it makes you cry. 4 year olds can be manipulative, and harsh as it sounds I have no qualms about letting 4 year olds understand that their behaviour has real consequences on how people around them feel.

b) absolute zero tolerance for strops, rudeness etc. You need to work out a punishment - for me it's always been sending to the bedroom. Be consistent and no warnings - she strops, she goes to her room, no discussion.

c) some sort of reward system for good behaviour. Something concrete and achievable - bribery often works a treat.

It really will get better - hang on in there. I have 3 boys, two of whom are SN, and one girl and I have to say DD has caused me more tears and heartache over the years than the DSs put together. She's 19 now and lovely - persist, and it is so worth it.

[dizzywitches]

and just so you know, I walk about muttering

'this too shall pass'
'keep calm and go with the flow'
'she's only 5 and I'm an ADULT FFS'

about 99% of the time, the other 1% I'm asleep

[SilkCutMama]

something that worked with my ds recently was this

We were in a shop and he saw somnthing he rally wanted

I dais if you are good for a whole week we will come back and you can have it

He was then an angel for 2 days

I have to say that I made the week ;last for 3 weeks and then we went back to buy it

It worked a treat

Try it - i will definitely be doing it agina

[toomuchmonthatendofthemoney]

sorry for xpost with thisisyesterday about the sausage roll tantrum, i took too long typing!

[SmugColditz]

I think you're being a bit too nice.

If my child had been that rude to me at 4, I'd NOT have bought a drink after being ordered to "jut buy me one". I'd have told her she would now have to wait, as we would be leaving the shop empty handed, and next time don't you DARE speak to me like that. How rude!
but that's just me, and that is only my opinion.

[wonderstuff]

Sounds awful, don't really have much advice, mine only 11mo, but hang on in there. How is her behaviour at school? Sometimes my stroppy teenagers at work respond to me being uber smiley and happy in the face of there tantrums, in a kinda - big grin, how long is this tantrum going to last? we going for 5 mins or the full 15?? big grin. Of course sometimes it just winds them up even more....

[LovelyDear]

my dd is exactly like this, but worse. she's appallingly rude to me and my friends. i suspect she's going to cause us to be ostracized soon if i don't find a way of getting through to her. i get cross with her which obviously doesn't help but i can't contain it all day long.

[SmugColditz]

I think getting cross at rudeness DOES help, it gives the impression that rudeness won't be tolerated - which you're not going to give by being nice about it.

You;re not her friend. She has friends. She needs you to be her mum and be in charge. Even more so if dad is a twat. Lay down the law, gently, kindly, but very firmly.

"There Will Be Manners" said The Mother, and Lo! There was a tantrum. "There will be Manners or there will be No Treats" said The Mother.

etc

[snowleopard]

This sounds awfully hard, and I don't want to sound as if I'm criticising (and definitely not flaming!), but I do have some suggestions. DS can be similarly bossy so I'm talking about what works for me.

When she speaks to you rudely, do you tell her it is rude and tell her you don't like it and will not cooperate with her unless she can be polite? She was horribly rude to you in the shop, yet from her POV she just kept getting rewarded by being offered more treats. You could just say, "I am giving you one more chance to be polite or we will leave the shop and I will not buy you anything". Then if she is still rude, do it - leave (calmly, not dramatically) and no treat.

I have recently (after seeing threads on here) got the book How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk. It recommends empathising with children's feelings and not negating them, to avoid tantrums. So for example where she said "i want a sausage roll" and you said you didn't have any, and she kicked off, the book would recommend listening to her and taking in that that's what she really wants, and talking about it eg "you really want one - what kind?" and "Oh, I wish I had one for you, they're your favourite aren't they?" etc. I have started trying it and it's true it takes the wind out of their sails and results in fewer tantrums. Might be worth getting the book anyway.

Also totally agree with getting a break from her somehow.

[Doodle2U]

Blimey - my 4 year old daughter would have got nowt for that little display and she'd have been waltzed straight up to her room and been left to tantrum on her jacksie!

Well done for keeping it together as well as you did. I haven't got it in me to be that nice a mother!

[snowleopard]

sorry x-posted with several people there.

[hatwoman]

you poor thing (lots of sympathy and I understand the namechanging - I nearly posted tonight about various dd-related issues but bottled it....)

can I very gently ask you a question (which you don;t have to answer, of course, it's a question to think about) - I ask this purely on the basis of what you've written and fully realise that (long thogh it is!) it's nowhere near the full picture - is there a possibility that you are parenting in a way that is "compensating" for any effects she may feel of her brothers ASD? ie do you feel he might get more than his "fair share" of attention so there's a bit of (mis-placed) guilt in there...so you don't want to cross her? you try to please her? the reason I ask is the example. she said "I want a sausage roll" and so you tried to get her one. it seems like you are perhaps giving the message that she's in control. when she absolutely needs (like all kids imo) to get the message that while you'll consider reasonable, nicely worded requests you are in control. you call the shots.

I might be completely wrong - in which case just ignore me. but if this rings any bells perhaps you could firstly engineer a bit of a rest/treat for yourself (you sound exhausted) and then set to work on how you can re-lay the boundaries in her life. how and when you can say no gently say no. and how you can encourage some good behaviour (rewards and lots of them). take a deep breath and tell yourself you can do this.

[AshamedAwfulMum]

When we go out or visit people she is worse. she wants my constant attention. if someone else told em about this situation i would assume that she is crying out for attention and i'd advise doing a 5 minute special time. giving her lots of praise and undivided attention.

but she does get that. Ds has play therapy and i do filial play therapy with them both (Not together) at home, she actually gets 40 minutes of just me and her sat playing or doing whatever she wants to do.

As for today's scene, your right thisisyesterday. I would never normally just give in to her like that. i would say No, you can wait and when she continued i would tell her that she will now have to go without, carry her to the car and go home in silence.
once she had finally calmed down i woudl speak to her about the way she behaved.

But i am just so tired of it all i just didn't have the energy to fight her. i wanted to give in and do as she wanted simply to shut her up.

She isn't like this at school at all. she is sweetness and light at school. if she is with my parents she is good as gold -is a bit of a madam in an "im too clever for my own good" kinda way, but essentially well behaved.

Im not with their dad, we split up when she was very little but she has started seeing him once a month. She has been for about 6 months or so. i had wondered if this may have something to do with it.

I take her everywhere with me. if i go out with friends she comes ( and ruins it for me by throwng a tantrum over the slightest thing...that sounds so incredibly selfish doesnt it.) if i go shopping she comes, and screams all the way round.

seeing it written doewn helps as im getting it all out in teh open but at the same time it just reafirms what an incredibly crap mum i have been.