School want 5yo to be removed.

[Indecisivelurcher]

I'm asking so I can perhaps pass advice on to my relatives. I think the main thing I want advice on is what sorts of things they should be asking of school.

The little boy in question is 5yrs old, in yr2. He has some issues around anger management, basically he flies off the handle and won't calm down. He has hurt a teacher before and he has hurt class mates, things like head butting. He hits his mum. He still has multiple incidents wetting himself a week. Autism and ADHD have been suggested, autism has now been ruled out by private assessment, ADHD hasn't been investigated yet. He has always been a bit of a handful but not dreadful, he can sit and concentrate well, he's bright, he's very kind to younger children.

The issue I am asking about is school seem to just exclude him. My relative has several calls a week to go pick him up, and not allow him back the following day. School have suggested they consider taking him out of the school. My relative thinks they just want to get rid of him now. They want him to go to part time hours but again that won't necessarily help with anything. Since then, they just default to exclusion, which doesn't help him. They don't seem to have a plan in place on how to help stop these behaviours. They have very full classes of 33 kids I think, 1 TA for the class and a part time SENCO. It's like they just want him out of their hair.

Thanks for reading, as I said at the start I am hoping to get some tips to pass on to my relatives to help make sure they're asking the right things of school. What would a good school be putting in place here?

[LIZS]

Is it state or private? In England or elsewhere? Year 2 is 6/7 year olds are you sure the facts are correct? Ipsea might be worth a call, to limit his school hours may be an illegal exclusion.

[TheChip]

There is only so much a school can actually do when there is a child with behavioural difficulties, for whatever reason.

There are schools that are more equipped to handle situations like this. So maybe have your relatives speak to school about alternative placements. Usually you need an EHCP in order for that to happen, so maybe have them push for that.

[Indecisivelurcher]

Sorry, he's 6 years old and in Yr2 of an English state school.

I also said my own daughter was 6 yesterday when she's 7 - clearly I've lost a year somewhere!

[Indecisivelurcher]

@TheChip

There is only so much a school can actually do when there is a child with behavioural difficulties, for whatever reason.

There are schools that are more equipped to handle situations like this. So maybe have your relatives speak to school about alternative placements. Usually you need an EHCP in order for that to happen, so maybe have them push for that.

But they haven't actually DONE anything, other than ask her to pick him up and not come back the next day!

[APerfectSky]

Has the school mentioned EHCPs at all? You don't need a diagnosis to get an ehcp and it might mean funding for a 1:1. Although I believe the school still need to fund some of that, so they would have to want to do it

My son was very similar at that age, has since been diagnosed with autism and ADHD and has a 1:1, which has been brilliant for him. He's now in year 5 and has calmed down loads and engages in class and is like a different child.

At the beginning, it was similar with being asked to pick him up etc, we did contemplate removing him at that point, but school was really supportive, and I'm so glad we stuck with it. It's take a lot of work, but we really are getting there.

Anxiety and communication difficulties really didn't help, coupled with poor impulse control.

[PragmaticWench]

Has the SENCO been involved?

[biggirlknickers]

He should have some kind of a support plan in place - although having a plan doesn’t necessarily mean that the support happens.

For a child with anger issues there might be small group work around managing feelings. There could be ways of the child being able to express anger before it becomes violent such as showing the adult on a feelings scale. They should have a ‘safe’ place in the classroom or very nearby where the child can take themselves to (or be taken to by an adult) if they are becoming disregulated. There could be distraction strategies. Also, they should be observing and noting what triggers his anger episodes - is it frustration if the work is hard? Is it social interactions? Whatever is triggering it, the school can put in support to avoid or cope with those triggers.

[Sirzy]

We don’t know what school have done. We don’t know what they have tried.

What have the parents done? Have they pushed for full assessments? Have they worked with the school to help tackle the issues?

[ComeAllYeFaithful]

Exclusion is a stands response to violence. Nobody should be hit, adult or child and it’s not fair to have him around if he’s behaving that way, so I do understand why they are doing that.

It sounds like he would be better in a school more suited to his needs x

[MrsArchchancellorRidcully]

I'm a parent governor at my sons school. We have a handful of children who need some help. For 2 they have 121 adult with them but obvs that's been formally agreed with LEA. My school works hard to halo kids. One child had been excluded from 3 schools before ours and they worked with him to help him integrate. Which he has done. He started off managing 2 hours a day and is now full time. We do have a permanent special needs teacher on site.

I would call the LEA and ask what the school can do to help your nephew. Simply keep on asking mum to collate is obvs not practical long term.

[Streamingbannersofdawn]

The laws on exclusion are clear...they are either excluded formally, for a fixed term (what we might have called a suspension, a day, a week etc) or permanently. It should be properly documented every time.

Anything else is an illegal exclusion, asking a parent to pick up early or just not to bring him in tomorrow is not allowed even if the parent agrees.

The school can of course exclude him for things like this but they must consider if any SN (diagnosed or otherwise) is unsupported and a factor in the exclusions. They cannot 'edge him out'.

SENCO needs to be involved and outside agencies. Does he have a plan in place? If they cannot meet his needs then they need to gather evidence of the fact to ensure that the child can access provision that can meet his needs.

[Indecisivelurcher]

EHCP is being applied for. Parents have paid for private autism assessment when GP said if there is a medical issue then it's too mild for NHS involvement, now looking into similar private assessment for Adhd. And parents are looking into parenting courses. Parents have been in touch with an inclusion officer at the County Council to see if they can get any advice. Issue is school don't seem to be supportive to work with them to resolve this issue. It's knowing what to say to the school. What to ask them to do.

[missbunnyrabbit]

The school won't be calling parents for no good reason. He sounds such a handful and difficult for staff to deal with. Remember, they have a full class of children to safeguard and teach.

[Indecisivelurcher]

@missbunnyrabbit

The school won't be calling parents for no good reason. He sounds such a handful and difficult for staff to deal with. Remember, they have a full class of children to safeguard and teach.

Oh, absolutely!

[girlmom21]

If the school are refusing to help they need to withdraw him and write to the governors/ofsted. The school have a duty to the child which they're refusing the fulfil because it's easier to push him out.

They can then find him a school that are willing to work with the parents.

[Indecisivelurcher]

Thanks for those helpful suggestions @biggirlknickers

[BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz]

@missbunnyrabbit

The school won't be calling parents for no good reason. He sounds such a handful and difficult for staff to deal with. Remember, they have a full class of children to safeguard and teach.

Yes and they have to do their best for every child. Including this one.

Or they follow formal processes.

[thelegohooverer]

I would seriously consider moving school in these circumstances. Having a dc with an is a long gruelling fight for everything. It doesn’t sound like the school are interested in supporting him and having to fight the school on top of all the other systems would be more than I could handle.

I’ve just gone from a school that we’re trying to be supportive (but not particularly great) to one that is doing everything they can for ds and it has made a massive difference to my mh.

Some schools will make life difficult so they can manage out dc with extra needs and while they need to be challenged on this I don’t think it should have to fall to an individual parent.

[Imitatingdory]

Are the exclusions formal exclusions with written paperwork each and every time? If not, they are illegal exclusions. In this case your relative should refuse to pick DS up unless they are given formal paperwork.

Where are they with the EHCP? Are the LA sticking to the statutory timescales and have all the necessary assessment being requested/carried out? If the school need more funding in the meantime they can apply for high needs top up funding. Don’t deregister.

although having a plan doesn’t necessarily mean that the support happens.

With an EHCP if the provision specified and quantified in section F isn’t provided you can enforce the EHCP via Judicial Review.

[Sirzy]

Who has applied for the ehcp?

[Enough4me]

What is he like at home?
Is it the class size or something in the environment triggering this?

[Indecisivelurcher]

@Sirzy

Who has applied for the ehcp?

I don't know the answer to that.

[melonhead]

@missbunnyrabbit

The school won't be calling parents for no good reason. He sounds such a handful and difficult for staff to deal with. Remember, they have a full class of children to safeguard and teach.

Absolutely. I am the parent of a child who the 'difficult child' was targeting, and most days my son would have a scratch or a tale of being pushed ... we spoke to the teacher nearly every day and the fact they wouldn't exclude the child made my son unhappy to go to school when he'd previously loved it. Talking to other parents, their children felt the same. Sadly, we had to collectively go to the head and say this is not acceptable; being kind to the difficult child meant that all our children were suffering.

[Indecisivelurcher]

@Enough4me

What is he like at home?
Is it the class size or something in the environment triggering this?

He's been difficult but is improved. Even as a toddler he was always the one who ran off, or the one who bit another at nursery. Toileting has been a real challenge. He hits and kicks his mum and flies off the handle. But they are learning how best to handle things, and what battles to pick and what to leave. They've seen improvements at home.

[Indecisivelurcher]

This isn't constant though I don't think, much of the time he's a lovely little boy, he is enthusiastic, can be very engaging.