Appears to thrive on drama

[winkywinkola]

My nearly 9 yo ds1 is extremely rude, uncooperative, generally unpleasant to us and his siblings.

He's always been hard work with a lot of tantrums for years and years since he was two years old.

We arranged for him to have counselling for two years. That helped. The counsellor said he was ready to not have counselling anymore.

Now he seems to be ramping up his behaviour. If he is told off or punished, he goes into utter hysterical meltdown.

It is totally bizarre. He knows what gets him a telling off or a punishment and yet he still totally goes for it. Every single day. Starting to think he really wants to trigger the beserk behaviour. It's like he's a mad.

He also seems to hurt my other dcs quite a lot. If they're in the garden, one of them ALWAYS comes in crying, saying he's hurt them. The dynamic changes when he starts to play with them.

Why? Whatever for? We just ignore it unless he's waking the other children. But it is extremely stressful and upsetting for the other dcs, as well us.

Can an 8 year old just not understand that if he behaves badly then he will get punished? I think he does know and he is trying to exert control.

He is so difficult. I hate being his parent.

[winkywinkola]

Plus he's an angel at school. Does very well.

[winkywinkola]

And I can't make it better for him unless he gets what he wants and then he calms down instantly.

[winkywinkola]

Yes. What we are doing doesn't work. But it seems unless he has complete control then he is not content.

Could you elaborate on reducing escalation please? Seriously I'm at a loss. I don't engage with him when he goes beserk so as not to fuel the anger.

I find him difficult to like. He is objectionable most of the time. I love him. I praise his good behaviour and achievements at school. When he show kindness to the others, I tell everyone what he did that day. We get him little trophies for his great work at school. We are actually ott in our praise of the good stuff. We are pathetically grateful for it.

However, after years of several hysterics daily, often upset siblings and scared dogs - he's hurt them too - i find him very hard to like.

He often comes to my bed in the night and I hug him, tell him his mum and dad love him and he goes back to sleep no problem.

Every day, I wake and think how I'm going to mange him, to outwit him, to prevent his meltdowns. My dh says it's like he deliberately causes delays in getting ready for school. This morning, we were late because his school trousers were "too thin" and he refused to wear them even though he'd worn them yesterday. I said he could go to school in his underpants if he wasn't going to wear them and he then went mental, screaming and shouting. Why?

I fear he is in a bad dark place and I can't help him get out of it.

[winkywinkola]

My other children adore him. They want to play with him, they get upset when he is upset.

[winkywinkola]

Thank you so much for your time on this London. I really appreciate your thoughts let me reread.

[winkywinkola]

I am often irritated. Visibly.

Yes, he is often the 'problem' in the home.

I felt his problem with the trousers was a fiction and that annoyed me. I just got on with the task of getting everyone ready for school, ignoring ds1 after my underpants comment but he knew I was annoyed.

We were ten minutes late for school. I don't care but the dcs care if they are late. They hate being the last ones in.

[winkywinkola]

We also have parent-child days. Dh and I take it in turns to take the older dcs out individually. Three weeks ago I went to the cinema with only ds1. Tomorrow he is going to see some rugby alone with dh. Activities he has chosen.

I need help with day to day stuff. I feel like I'm losing my son.

[mumatwork999]

What a time you are having - I'm exhausted just reading it. I can't offer much in the way of experience of 9YO (my DS is only 3) but I have some experience of 'difficult' adults and it is a strain no matter how much you love them. Have you tried going back to your GP/counsellor for more sessions? there is a hint that this worked a bit at the time. Did you sit in on DS1's sessions and hear what he had to say - does that shed any light? Just out of interest - is he better behaved on his parent-child trips? Is he the same with his dad and you? Maybe he really does crave your attention so much he will do anything to divert you from the other family events/siblings. Sneaking to your bed for a cuddle is heartbreaking - sounds like he needs lots of cuddles and reassurance even if he doesn't seem to 'deserve them' most of the time (along with strong guidance on what is unacceptable behaviour). I think you really need to go back to the professionals for support and guidance.

[winkywinkola]

One on one he is a delight. He should have been an only child.

I think we will get more professional help. We aren't doing a good job for him.

[mumatwork999]

Couldn't not reply to your last sentence! You ARE doing a great job as parents but he just needs more than you (or any parent) can provide alone. Hope it works out.

[tiredandsadmum]

I have an 8 year old DS and for a long time observed unusual behaviour. 3 years ago I read the diagnostic criteria for PDA and I had a lightbulb moment. It is about control and anxiety from the child, resulting in outbursts. Sorry I am off to bed but in brief

he is trying to exert control.
unless he has complete control then he is not content.
uncooperative
tantrums
escalating behaviour
upset siblings and scared [animals]
causes delays in getting ready for school
sensory issues
different behaviour in different settings

all fit.

This is the link www.pdaresource.com/

You can also find more details on the National Autistic Website

there are plenty of support groups if you read and want to explore further.

[winkywinkola]

Tiredandsad, I wonder.

He is perfect at school and this is why GP says there isn't a problem.

But with the diagnosis you have found, people can adapt their behaviour?

I don't know. He has hardly any friends.

[have4goneinsane]

afraid I have no solutions but total sympathy and empathy and understanding - you are describing our 7yr old DD to a T

she is autistic and also gifted which often makes her very frustrated but I am not always sure that that is the root of it all, bloody hard to live with and I am completely with you on the not liking them very much a lot of the time. We walk on eggshells, she is away tonight on a cubs sleepover and we have all breathed a sigh of relief

[winkywinkola]

Thank you for understanding. My ds is going on a school trip fora week at Easter.

It upsets me how I know it will be a relief for all of us.

Even though he asked to go he will punish us with extra bad behaviour when he gets back. That's what happens when he goes to stay with a grandparent for a weekend.

Do you just feel so weary of the constant negativity and contradictions and the lead up to the rage? You can see it coming but there is nothing you can do about it.

It's must be exhausting for him to be like this. When I think of his anger I think his cortisol levels must be jammed up high.

[DonkeysDontRideBicycles]

This sounds very troubling Op it appears you've tried the things that are usually effective. I wish I had something useful to suggest other than, can you pursue further counselling.

Bad enough that he knows he'll get told off for raising cain yet still persists - but if he is hurting his siblings and pets it suggests added frustration and anger.

These meltdowns started around 2, did he hurt himself back then? Self-injurious behaviour along with other developmental issues could have been an early warning.

I was going to suggest some form of autism but tiredandsadmum and have4goneinsane beat me to it.

[saintlyjimjams]

Is he the youngest?

My youngest of three is an angel at school, can be very difficult at home - it's attention seeking (esp for attention from me). I just TRY to be consistent (don't always succeed - am human) & fair & give fair warning & stay calm but firm. He's 9 now & has improved a lot in the last 6 months.

[HolidayCriminal]

Tired&Sad's checklist also describes DS fairly well but I've never seen PDA described like that. Usually there's a long list of other stuff that doesn't fit DS (so basically, the majority of the supposed PDA traits aren't DS at all). DS is a pain everywhere, including at school. (I can't find any checklists from the pdaresources website, is there one?)

How could OP's child have PDA & be so good at school?

We have utterly failed to get anything useful out of CAMHS. We could go down the private counselling route but I don't want to pay out thousands only to have OP's experience of nothing getting better.

[have4goneinsane]

oh yes, the rage that you know is coming but you can't avoid, yesterday morning I had the cheek to remind her that she needed to put on her school socks

getting her out the house even for her own activities almost always results in a screaming on the floor episode and increasingly I am having things thrown at me too

life is obviously incredibly stressful for her - because of her autism she just cannot understand that the world does not totally revolve around her. I feel incredibly sad for her but also extremely weary. She is holding it together at school OK-ish this year, but it does seem to make the after school explosions more violent.

[mumatwork999]

I'm new to MN but wow I have already learnt so much. I'd never even heard of PDA. Just scanned the link provided.
Looks like a child with this could be 'good' at school but 'bad' in other situations esp those they feel they can't control (e.g. busy family home life?). Also looks like a new enough condition for a GP/counsellor to potentially not be 'up' on a diagnosis.
Winky - I would definitely explore this further with your GP. It has to be worth a shot. Best of luck.

[tiredandsadmum]

Actually the list I posted was all direct quotes from winky's own post where she is describing HER child. They were the aspects that stood out to me as possible PDA. I am not a professional (at all) but I believe my DS has PDA and I have looked very hard at the diagnostic criteria over several years. These can be found on the PDA resources website, under pdfs, books etc. There is a 41 page document (suitable for parents, schools and professionals) and there used to be a short 2-3 pager describing PDA. These are the top 2 resources listed.

Contrary to the belief of many professionals it does seem as if PDA children can present differently in different settings. So somehow they can hold it together in school, but not at home. (This is not always true for teenagers with PDA). This causes a problem with getting a diagnosis. I now have the Ed Pysch coming to look at my DS at home and in school. She cannot diagnose but can hint at in her report.

PDA is rarely diagnosed in this country - it is not in the latest diagnostic manual, but is recognised by the National Autistic Society. Some parents have managed to get an ASD with PDA diagnosis. Others have been advised that it could be ODD or attachment and sorry have no idea what these are!!

Winky - you ask about adapting their [own] behaviour. These children don't react in the way they do because they want to react that way, it is a response to the "demands" placed on them. So the individuals surrounding that child need to adapt so that requests become flexible, own idea of the child [so child in control], but trying to achieve normal life.

My DS struggled with friendships - he couldn't relate emotionally, invaded personal space, quite obsessive on 1 child. But the big issue was that he always wanted to be in control of the game. So a standard game he varies all the rules all the time. Things have improved in the last year, he now has a little group of friends and actually had the 1st playdate in years. Sorry another long post!

[HolidayCriminal]

Did you mean this booklet, T&S?

Gosh there's simply tonnes in there that doesn't describe DS at all. Whereas the extracts T&S gave were fairly close.

Sorry Winky, don't mean to hijack. Good luck.

[tiredandsadmum]

Hi, yes that is the fairly new booklet that has been put together in the last couple of years. When I was looking over 3 years ago there was a much shorter document. I always refer to the 8 diagnostic criteria - I must go see why it seems to be fewer now.

I can see my DS exhibiting 5 out of the 8, 2 I don't understand (not being a professional) and 1 I simply cant recall (being the passivity in early years).

On the support groups it is always mentioned that it is part of a spectrum so different children will react differently. eg my DS does not have sensory issues, whereas many others seem to.