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Sleep, or lack there of

(22 Posts)
FadBook Fri 28-Dec-12 07:29:59

So dd (17 months) isn't sleeping well.

Nothing new. Except now DP wants to leave her to cry (CIO).

I don't want to do this.

Who's right?

Any success stories from those that didn't resort to CIO at this age?

Any research based evidence about CIO and lasting effects, good or bad ? I can only find blogs which are more personal opinion and anecdotal.

I'm at breaking point and never ever thought I'd consider this route but I don't know how long we can go on for.

Last night, I fed her at 12.30, she had calpol too due to teething earlier in the day, woke at 2.30 for milk (bf) and I refused to give. Cue basically a 4.5 hour standoff that's managed to wind me up. I've kept calm till 6.30 when I snapped and shouted. It can't go on like this.

She has red eyes, is really tired but will not go to sleep.

So not to drip feed, we moved house last week so obviously change is affecting her. But her having 6 hours sleep isn't great. Previously we have tried dr jay Gordon, have read no cry sleep solution and we breast feed to sleep during the night (now). She goes to sleep at 7ish no problem or issue at all.

Anyone have any tips, ideas, a vodka?

FadBook Fri 28-Dec-12 08:59:55

Bump hmm

FadBook Fri 28-Dec-12 13:00:47

No one has any advice? Or are you all sale shopping?

QTPie Fri 28-Dec-12 13:09:53

She is probably just teething...

Slightly different thread, but read my replies to this - save me typing basically the same again...

Where does she sleep? How do you try to resettle her? Have you tried a mattress next to her cot?

FadBook Fri 28-Dec-12 13:41:55

Thanks QTpie will have a read of that thread

In old house we had a bed in her room, since move, no bed. Contemplating buying a single mattress to lie down with her, or taking side off cot.

It's all change for her but its bloody hard when you and DP are on completely different pages.

leelteloo Fri 28-Dec-12 14:11:15

It's so horrid to be that sleep deprived: I feel for you all. I was the same with my dd. I remember the hv being extremely concerned about my mental state at her 2 yr check because I was at breaking point through lack of sleep. It was like having a new born for ever and ever, I shudder just thinking about it.
I feel like I tried everything but she never ever went for more than about 2 hrs without waking.
We tried controlled crying and it helped a little bit but nothing seemed to keep her asleep.
The things that helped were finding an ongoing sleep thread on mn; where we all posted in the night or next day and supported each other and swapped tips. That saved my sanity. Total black out in her room. Ticking clock under cot. As she got older story on the iPod. Same one on a loop for sleep association. In the end I became so desperate and I was so sick with morning sickness, I just moved in and slept with her. I did this when she was 2 and a half. I slept in with her every night for 2 months and she stopped waking. She must have just learnt I was there and felt secure. I then moved out, sickness was past and she carried on sleeping so much better.
She still wakes more in the night than my 4 month ds shock but she is better than she was.
I really hope you and dh can agree on a plan and crack it soon and you all get a new year full of sleep smile

QTPie Fri 28-Dec-12 15:37:27

Sorry, I missed the "move" thing - it can be a massive change for them! We moved when DS was 10 months and were lucky that he didn't notice, but he was a lot younger and is very adaptable - most toddlers aren't.

Sorry to your DH, but Mum normally know best (assuming you are the primary carer): trust your gut.

I really do think that putting abed/mattress in her room and staying with her (if you can) is the best way: get her comfortable, secure and happy in there and sleep will return. Yes, you would be a crutch, but then in a few weeks (when you feel she is ready), you can slowly and gently start removing yourself (use Supernanny's Sleep Seperation to move away from DD, slowly out of the room and along the hallway). Little, gentle baby steps...

I am far from a soft, co-sleeping, hippy mother, but I believe that feeling reassured and secure at night is important. She is tiny, she is upset/frightened/confused (maybe teething as well): she wants a parent to reassure her. CIO isn't the best solution. Some parents do CIO (sometimes through desperation) and that is their choice, but if you can avoid it, it has to be kinder smile

Saltytomato Fri 28-Dec-12 16:07:57

Sorry, no ideas as my DS is a lot younger, but I just want to say that if you do go down the cry it out route then make sure you read or google 'solve your child's sleep problems' by dr Ferber. He basically invented the least horrible CIO method.

mummybare Fri 28-Dec-12 16:49:44

This article references some research, although I'm not sure of its substance as I'm on the phone. I would be wary of doing CIO, particularly while DD is feeling insecure in a new environment. Perhaps look into graduated withdrawal; pick up-put down; walk in-walk out?

FadBook Fri 28-Dec-12 22:06:39

Thank you so much for the responses. It is reassuring to know that my instinct is right, I need to stop with her and just be there for her. The thought of leaving her to cry on her own is not natural to me. But then last night I felt myself loosing it and getting angry and frustrated. After 4.5 hours of no sleep, I think I must have me hit a limit (DP hit his within 30 min of her waking!)

DP has today said he thinks breastfeeding is making it worse as she's waking up and wants that. I have to disagree, she wants me obviously, but we night weaned from 12 months and it was going well. December has been a stressful time with the move and her teething and that has meant I've fed to sleep during the night (with full support of DP who wanted a full nights sleep wink).

I've set the spare bedroom up tonight so we can go in there if she wakes and restart dr jay Gordon's method. She was exhausted today, but I've limited her sleep to be honest to 2.5 hours. I think she would have slept longer if we'd let her.

Thanks again all

lovemynathy Fri 28-Dec-12 22:19:17

Hi, I had the same. Since my pregnancy I was drinking coffee, but when my DS started waking up a few weeks back something told me to stop, I went on decaf and it HELPED. I also put a wave sound on my Ipad ot phone, or hair drier sound in extreme situation, irritates my DH to bits but it helps. Also I started giving goats milk bottle instead of one of the feed, it seems to keep him full of longer. Good luck hun, I feel for you as I never know if I am going to have some sleep this night. Always try to go as early as possible to get some sleep just in case he wakes up. Another thing I used when he was awake at night, I put some nice movie for me and sit with him in our rocking chair. The movie made me relax and DS got bored and went to sleep.

I just wanted to offer you a hand to hold.

Sleep deprivation sucks doesn't it?

We have a 16mo who wakes regularly and won't be settled without a feed. DH has always said we should just leave him to CIO but I've always refused. A few weeks ao we had yet another row about it and DH (incredibly, amazingly!) listened and agreed when I said a version of 'this too will pass'. Maybe not next week, maybe not next month, but I am confident that at some point in the future we will sleep again grin We're now going for a 'whatever works' solution. Some nights I get up and feed him, some nights we bring him in with us, some nights DH takes him to the spare room (if he can't tell I'm there he settles for DH)

For now it is working and we're just about holding it together, but we're moving next week so I may be back in tears, begging for help.

Good luck x

lovemynathy Fri 28-Dec-12 22:36:49

And also I drink tonnes of camomile tea

FadBook Sat 29-Dec-12 02:37:00

Lovemynathy thanks for the tips. I don't drink caffeine either, haven't for a few years but funnily enough this last week with people helping in the house they've made the tea, and I hadn't separated the decaf out. I also randomly have fancied coke cola too - amongst the teeth and house move, it's probably another factor to consider.

Thanks for your post Atruth... This too shall pass, this too shall pass. She's gone 7-2am and on waking I've took her to spare room, refused milk, offered water and cuddles. Stopped crying quicker, but still not asleep. I put her back in cot after 25 min, and thought she'd gone off but I can hear her now. Another long night ahead...

SquidgyMummy Sat 29-Dec-12 03:10:50

can your DH do the 2.30am feed with formula?
As you can see from the time i haven't got sleep with DS 2.2 cracked yet. He has just had a bottle and I know my problem is too much milk during the day do not enough solids to take him through, but we have been travelling so taken the easy comfort option of a bottle to resettle him.

in your case, OP, i'm wondering if the last bf is enough to take her through the night and she would benefit from a bottle of formula to fill her tummy. Also look at her food intake during the day, she is probably not that hungry if teething, so try and give her lots of calorie dense foods.

Also given the recent house move, I would not advocate CIO, she needs reassurance, not more abandonment.
Try gradual withdrawal. (google) I've got to go back to bed now!
good luck!

Tolly81 Sat 29-Dec-12 04:07:25

There is a review of all the research done on cc methods on here:
Not sure the link has worked but go to "sleep training research". Briefly it says that all individual studies report initial improvement in babies sleep but this did not persist at 6 months when followed up. Also there are some studies that have measured stress hormones in babies undergoing cc and these remain high when put in their cot at bedtime after cc. I couldn't face it (but I understand many are driven to it) but from what I understand it should not be used if there are other issues going on and the house move and teething both fall into that category. I also think it would not be right to do it if you weren't sure about it as starting sleep training and not following through could possibly make things worse. When you feel that she's more settled you could tackle not feeding at night as sometimes as this makes them wee more it can lead to a less settled night. I managed to stop feeding by giving progressively more dilute bottles at night - I was bf at the time but she would take a bottle and not BFing her at night helped find out how much was comfort and how much hunger. Once the bottles were gradually more dilute she started taking more during the day and now I don't feed her if she wakes at night just hold her. Sorry not a helpful suggestion if your dd will not take a bottle! Also agree the mattress on the floor sounds like a good move - if you didn't want to get a mattress a single air bed or fouton might be a good purchase and you're likely to get lots of use from it when dd older anyway. I always comfort dd in her bedroom but I've just moved the armchair up to her cot to try leaving her in it with my hand on her rather than picking her up. HTH good luck.

FadBook Sat 29-Dec-12 07:40:43

Thanks squidgy, unfortunately dd won't take a bottle and it is definitely for comfort at night. She eats very well, always has done. Not sounding disrespectful to you or your choice to give formula but I wouldn't give dd formula having breastfed from birth till now- if dd is hungry, then the idea of weaning, to me, is to get her to eat more solids, not fill her up with milk (breast or formula).

Tolly - thanks for the link. I had heard about the stress hormones sticking around after the crying stops but read it in the DM which isn't always reputable wink. But your wording is good for me to use with DP - I like the:

"it isn't recommended to use CIO / CC if there are other stressors..."

..which we clearly have with the move, teething etc. I tried her with a bit of cows milk in a sippy cup last night, she took a bit but not much- so it's definitely a comfort thing, so we slept in the double bed from 3am-6.45am. Oh and love your futon idea, that would probably work better in her room a trip to ikea on the cards tbh and we could use it when she's older too.

QTPie Sat 29-Dec-12 08:07:46

Futon definitely a good idea: looks like you are "moving her around" a lot at the moment (her cot , spare room, your room) - probably adding her confusion from moving. Try to keep her in one place and go to her.


yawningbear Sat 29-Dec-12 08:25:06

Lots of good advice already but I would also totally recommend sleeping in with her. DD was a total nightmare sleeper and after trying all manner of things, in the end I just slept on a mattress by the cot. She is 4 now and a really good sleeper. DS is 2 and he left his cot a very long time ago and sleeps in a double bed with me. He goes to sleep by himself but invariably I go in with him at some point. I know weaning him off sleeping with me will be a process we have to go through at some point but it isn't a stress as I know that with DD it was just a matter of time really. Also as others have already said and given you the links for your DP, even those who advocate CC state not to start when there are other issues such as illness, teething etc. Happy shopping at IKea grin

forcedinsomnia Sat 29-Dec-12 09:27:38

My ds (17mo) has now started waking for up to 2+ hours at night. Normally around 4am. He did it this morning......eventually we brought him in with us. He went back to sleep at 6 ish and is still snoring beside me now!!! It really winds me up some nights too......he just wants to sit and have me cuddle him . Doesn't seem much wrong.....soon as I put him down....meltdown. Except the odd occasion he goes back to sleep on his own.....which I know he can do. He did it for a while before this little stint. I put it down to teeth. Can see a few new teeth popping through. How many teeth to babies have anyway? He must have 15 ish now......surely that's enough!! ;-) Posdibly developmental too......he sometimes lies saying all his new words for ages too. Cute but not at 4am please son! :-)

forcedinsomnia Sat 29-Dec-12 09:29:09

Meant to say we do whatever it takes to make life easier......must be hard if you and dh disagree on what that is though. Good luck.

FadBook Sun 30-Dec-12 06:18:49

Thanks for the advice yawningbear & forcedinsomnia. Slept with her night before last in spare room and refused bf.

Last night: 7pm - 5.30am!!! smile she's slowly learning.

She didn't eat much dinner and DP gave her a banana and weetabix just before bedtime, so may have helped. Her teething didn't seem as full on as previous days either.

Please repeat this sleep pattern every night dear daughter! grin

Had a chat with DP and he admitted he was being selfish for wanting to leave her to cry (He a self confessed selfish person when it come to anything affecting him...sound worse written down, but he knows he is and he's taken a fair few compromises since we had dd - just need to keep reminding him, she's still a baby).

I used some of the language on here with him about the changes she's had to deal with the last 4 weeks etc and how mr google doesn't recommend CC or CIO if there are other stressful factors (I can't quote MN as he always tells me I'm on here too much!! wink) and also how if I was upset, frightened, scared when I woke up in the night and cried- would he leave me to cry on my own or would he console me? (Think this one hit home more!)

We seem to have reached a compromise - continue to refuse milk feeds at night after 11pm and sleep with her if she wakes after this time following dr jay Gordon method again, which did work for us previously.

I've also been out and brought almond milk and goats milk as she isn't fussed on cows milk. It's just another tool in my bag to offer to her instead of bf at night.

Ikea trip planned ny eve! Yay!

Thanks all - big support to me, you don't understand how much it means to have others reassure you that your instinct is right.

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