I lost it with my boys. I told them if they dont start behaving together, dad and I will move apart and live with ONE boy each,

[QuintessentialShadow]

because you are just impossible together.

Ds2 is currently amusing himself with burping loudly into DS1s face. He keeps doing it, and laughs. Nothing anybody say, or do, will make him stop.
DS2 also keeps launching himself at ds1 and shower him with kisses.
Ds1 does not like it, so he keeps asking him to stop.
He does not respect his boundaries at all! When ds1 gets annoyed, ds2 is jubilant.
So ds1 got fed up with burps and kisses, so pushed ds2 over, so he hurt his back.

I have well and truly had enough of them.

Ds2 does not seem to GET that "stop, dont do this" actually means he should stop....

What can I do?

[BertieBotts]

What happens if you tell them to play in different rooms?

[QuintessentialShadow]

Then ds1 will go to his room to read. ds2 will amuse himself trying to get into ds1s room.

[baskingseals]

how old are they?

does sound very annoying
my nickname for ds1 is Kato - but it's not that funny any more, especially when he attacks ds2.

i just repeat no. i also say 'would you like me to pinch/hit/kick you' in a serious voice, that normally stops him.

[Goblinchild]

What a tolerant and kind child DS1 sounds like, in my house he would have been battered by the older sibling if I didn't do something to control the situation first.

[QuintessentialShadow]

Ds1 is very tolerant.
Ds1 is 9 and ds2 ks 6. Too old for such behaviour. It seems he likes to wind people up. If we deal with his behaviour, he starts mock crying and whining. It has only been like this for a few months. So this new behaviour is taking us all by surprise. He has been such a good boy, he loves hugs and kisses and has been so affectionate. He gets lots of positive attention, so he really does not need to behave like this.

[Grabaspoon]

You need to sit down and make some basic ground rules ie no inapropriate touching, if you're brother is in his room - leave him alone; and then agree to sanctions etc

Then carry them out!

EG With the above situation - You get to DS2 level explain that this is unaceptable and if he continues he will lose tv time/go to his room for a time out etc if it persists carry it out.

It sounds like DS2 is bored can you encourage him to do something - chores (make it a race or pay him) help him set up an elaborate game with playmobil/lego, get him to help you/DH.

I totally know where you're coming from I nanny for 2 boys 5 and 8.5 and this sounds like them - I have to be fair/firm and give the youngest something to do or try and wear him out.

[QuintessentialShadow]

We have sat down and talked about basic ground rules. He ignores this. He does not care about sanctions! He just pouts and says, "fine, if that is what you want". Goes into his room, and sits down on his bed and stares into space....

Dont know how to challenge him more though. He is on the trampoline a lot, he cycles, we go for mountain walks, we are usually quite busy. Nearly too busy. He keeps asking for just chill out time at home, and the moment we do, he start picking fights with his brother.

[Grabaspoon]

But if he's in his room then he's not annoying his brother.

Maybe DS2 needs to learn how to occupy himself at home - instead of doing lots of organised activities outside the home - I know this is the opposite to what I said.

[Goblinchild]

If you live separately,who gets DS2?
I'd come down very firmly on him, he's baiting his brother and getting away with it. You are fed up with both of them? Why? All DS1 seems to have done is cracked because you were unable to stop his brother being a PITA to him.
Tell DS2 to stop, then sanction him. Whatever it is that matters to him, use it as leverage. Let him really understand that this behaviour will inevitably lead to this consequence.
I know nothing about your children, but DS2 sounds indulged.

[QuintessentialShadow]

He does not really like to play with toys.... He does not like to look in books. He is ok to watch some tv. He is ok to play with lego for a bit. He does not like to play with playmobile. He can play with play-doh for a few minutes, paint for a few minutes. He likes to bake with me, for short periods of time.

The thing is, he is very sporty. He loves skiing, walking, trampolining, he loves to be and explore, he likes to look for beetles, pick flowers, chase butterflies, catch insects to look at. He is very much an outdoors boy. He loves to play with the hose. He loves to look at the rainbow through water against the sun. He loves to fill waterballons and throw. He loves to play with bubbles. Anything outdoors.

He just cannot preoccupy himself indoors!

[QuintessentialShadow]

ds2 is possibly indulged, because the behaviour is new, and we are only human and it takes a while to see the pattern.

[Popbiscuit]

Sigh. Exactly the same in my house. My DS1 is exactly as you describe your DS2. He is making us all miserable. He is also 6--perhaps it is an age thing particular to some children? No answers, I'm afraid.

[colditz]

But, QS, my dear, he doesn't get to piss his well behaved big brother off because he is bored. His boredom isn't his brother's responsibility, and he needs to learn that. Boot him outside in the garden with a butterfly net.

I have a 5 and an 8 year old, so kind of know where you are coming from.

[QuintessentialShadow]

Well Colditz, not at 9.30 pm I cant.
Though I wish I could.

And no, we dont allow him to piss his brother off. Though he does. Despite us telling him not to, and try to deal with his behaviour and sanctions.

He is a little manipulator. No does not mean No in his book.

[colditz]

bedtime bedtime bedtime, in the timeless words of Dylan Moran.

Send Ds2 to bed and let your ds1 wind down a bit in peace. i had to do exactly this tonight.

[colditz]

And I find that sometimes small boys think they are bored because actually they are too tired to think of anything really interesting to do, and don't have the concentration span (through tiredness) to do it.

bedtime is my salve to everything

[QuintessentialShadow]

It is tough here at the moment, due to the midnight sun shining in through our windows 24/7. They dont see why they cant stay up, the sun is shining, life is great.... Only that mummy is tired....

[colditz]

Welll, [brutal} they might not see why they can't stay up, but my children are still bring sent to bed at 8 because despite the still brilliant sunshine here at 8pm, they are tired, and if I put them in a dark room they will sleep (or Ds2 will, Ds1 is having big issues with it, actually, but he still has to be in bed) because they also get up and the crack of arseholes dawn.

Now you mention the midnight sun, your Ds2's behavior sounds more and more like 6 year old boy knackeredness.

Black out blind?

[Grabaspoon]

Agree that it could be tiredness Colditz.

Think you just need to

1. Ignore any minor issues - praise good ignore bad - he wants any type of attention.
   
2. Crack down on what you see as main issues ie annoying his brother.
   
3. Continuity do the same thing/sanction everytime so 1 warning and then the sanction don't just leave it because; he's tired, DS1 isn't bothered at the moment, because you can't be doing with a fight etc
   
4. Put him to bed at 7 - you say they don't understand why they should go to sleep with the sun still up, my DC can't understand why he can't have cake for breakfast and swing from the light fittings - I am the grown up and know what's best for him, and sometimes that's the only response.

[Bumperlicioso]

QS those dawn simulator alarm clocks also do a sunset simulator, ie you switch them on and they gradually dim to black. If you put one of those on coupled with a blackout blind it might help him to wind down. I expect the midnight sun fucks with your circadian rhythms.

[OCDspecialist]

Sigh. Another with exact same problem here. My 2 boys (7 and 4) take turns to wind eachother up, although mostly it seems to be ds2 trying to prove his 'alpha male' credentials by poking/headbutting ds1 while he is trying to read or play the DS or, indeed, do ANYTHING which does not involve fighting playing with ds2.

Colditz how do you get ds2 to go to bed??? If my ds2 knows ds1 is still up, he continually runs up and down the stairs whining, crying, shouting etc. Gah

[WinkyWinkola]

I know how you feel about the relentlessness of it. I begged dh to move out with ds1 to a flat or a bedsit or to his mother's - anywhere away from me and the other dcs because he was just too much. Too much hysteria, too many tantrums, rage, defiance, contrariness all day, every day. It was awful.

We tried rewarding with marbles. Ds1 (now 6) and dd (now 4) had a box into which they could put their marbles. When they'd got 15 for good behaviour (easy target at first), they got a prize. A small prize like a whoopee cushion or a bath bomb (20p). You can't take marbles away but you can say, "No more marbles."

Are small prizes something your ds2 would respond positively to?

We've stopped the marbles now as ds1's behaviour improved enormously. I've gone back to confiscating toys or stopping tv time which seems to work now. I know the +ve reinforcement is preferable ultimately but I seem to be going for the quick fix which I know will bite me on the bum very soon.

I hope things get better. YOu're not alone in your sense of despair.

[Alibabaandthe80nappies]

Quint my brothers were just like this, same age gap.

DB2 used to get sat down with pages of sums, or books about bugs/animals/insects - anything where he could learn some facts and it would help him not be so fecking irritating :)

It was a phase, it passed.

[GreenTeapot]

Disclaimer: I haven't got a 6 year old.

If DS2 just sits in his room staring into space, why is that a problem? He's giving DS1 a break and also calming down a bit. Do it often enough and he might get bored of it. Is there anything they will do nicely together?

[ivykaty44]

I would say because he is so busy so much of the time- he hasn't learnt how to amuse himself without annoying his borther.

can you stop being so busy and take the other brother out for the day so dc can be bored at home and not be able to annoy his brother and learn/ teach himself how to not be bored on his own without annoying soemone