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Politics, religion and terrorism - challenging the current approach

(48 Posts)
Papillon Mon 25-Jul-05 11:16:00

Ladies and gentlemen, please fasten your seatbelts we are about to fly into both chartered and unchartered territory and it may get bumpy.

more in a minute - unless someone else takes the talking stick.

Papillon Mon 25-Jul-05 11:20:28

This thread is a branching diversion of this thread HERE

Blu Mon 25-Jul-05 11:22:27

Yes, monkeytrousers et al - I look forward to joining this thread...will be there in a minute, have to take car to garage (unfortunate smike experience on way back from ikea..)

Papillon Mon 25-Jul-05 11:28:02

ok so I am going to be lazy and paste in a post I made yesterday.

It is an area I would like to further discuss because both U.S. and U.K. voters let George Bush and Tony Blair back into office for a second term. Many people marched against the War on Terrorism, so

Why were they voted back in?
If you marched and are against this war, and voted for either of them, why you vote them back in?
If you did not vote for them, have you any suggestions/ideas?


I marched against the war in Iraq in Switzerland, marching might bring emotions of solidatory but on election day the majority of a population repeatedly vote for either of the two prevailing majority parties. And what have both these parties being doing miltary wise...

The occupying forces in Iraq have managed to set up a national assembly, government and presidency; yet they are making little headway against armed resistance fighter.

Why is that? Well here is a good reason -

Both the UK and the US have been bombing the no-fly zone since the Gulf war. It was a war and has effected the people of Iraq for 10 years. Small wonder some of them have become resistance fighters against terrorism waged upon their people and their country.

Did anybody really expect them to roll on their backs like a good doggy and wag its tail? No, just think in the last few days the emotions some of you have felt at the bombings. The thoughts, the prejudice, the fear. Lets try that in our own backyard for the next 10 years and then we might have some appreciation of how it might feel to live in a neighbourhood where half the houses are in rubble. Large populations of our men dead. Would all of us just feel outrage or would some of us fight back?

Think about how the political structure should represent the public? There is no diversification in a one rule party system.

Why does there have to be one person, one party at top? What is so frightening about colition governments and politics more directly representing all people?

Papillon Mon 25-Jul-05 11:29:00

Nice one Blu - would love to know what a smike experience is...?

monkeytrousers Mon 25-Jul-05 11:31:28

Haven't read your big post yet Paps. Just checking in. Going to be dipping in and out. Am on so many threads at the moment I need a babysitter!

monkeytrousers Mon 25-Jul-05 11:31:52

Do you mind me calling you that BTW?

Papillon Mon 25-Jul-05 11:36:24

No I feel honoured you choose to use my ´pet´name Is MT aright with you - or what is your shortened handle of choice?

I know its a busy time and loads to think about for my sagging pregnant brain!! I am missing my siesta today.

monkeytrousers Mon 25-Jul-05 12:08:32

No problem Paps! But you should have you siesta - get as much sleep as possible before the birth! Is it your first?

Papillon Mon 25-Jul-05 13:21:13

Did take that siesta - its the 2nd pregnancy - have dd1 who is 22 months.

I think you have two kids?

Heathcliffscathy Mon 25-Jul-05 13:43:29

i marched against the war. i voted against labour for the first time.

i think that is why i am so angry about a lot of this stuff.

Windermere Mon 25-Jul-05 13:56:49

I was/still am against the war in Iraq, although I did not march. I did not vote labour mainly because of the war. I know a lot of people who did vote labour but are against the war they voted labour because they felt they were more likely to maintain a strong economy and the war was not the most pressing issue for them.

monkeytrousers Mon 25-Jul-05 14:28:24

No Pap's just the one, 9 months old.

I was against the war but did vote for Blair, or rather The Labout Party as I find the idea of single issue politics a bit scary. I weighed it up, discussed it with my DP who is a highly intellegent political analyist (not professionally, I hasten to add but he bloody well should be)and decided to apply a bit of 'real politik' thinking to the way we voted.

None of the other parties social policies came close to matching teh LP's in our opinion. Plus we work predominatly in the arts and no other party is remotely interested in the area. We also hope Blair steps down soon to let Brown ascend.

Papillon Mon 25-Jul-05 14:51:39

I have those feelings too Sophable. I feel pI§§ed off too... felt that way when the Iraq War began and again now.

NZ introduced MMP Mixed Member Proportional voting in 1986 - so we have a party vote and a regional vote. This means that colition governments have been formed and/or there is greater representation of women and ethic groups. MMP governments are more common in Europe (Germany). Has MMP been discussed much in England?

Some more info on NZ and MMP ...here

Papillon Mon 25-Jul-05 15:13:19

I find the War on Terror such a big issue that it dominates my political decision making atm. PM Helen Clark (Labour) has just announced the date of the next NZ election and with MMP I know that my party vote means that the Green party now has been able to have seats in parliament. I find them sympathetic to social and the arts also and of course completely anti war.

Just read this about George Bush this morning. I have read things similar but it still makes me shake my head
here

monkeytrousers Mon 25-Jul-05 19:45:43

Hey Paps,

I honestly think that whoever the party in power was that they would've gone into Iraq with the US. Even the Greens!

I think achieving power changes the nature of things, and demands a certain ruthless pragmatism. Being a cabinet politician and especially being PM (or President) isn't a job that I'd covert. Business interests need to be protected, as do econimies built on arms sales and colonial plunder. It's all hopelessly compromised at some level, but it is essential that it is done. I think this is the nature of real politik. But I also know I'm very ignorant on politics, per se, and rely on my DP alot as he relies on me in other areas.

It's also the nature of politics to compromise, to not always achieve your aims, especially idealistic personal ones. It's easy for the Greens or even the Lib Dems to be the voice of reason when they know they'll never have to make such tricky compromises themselves. That was why I voted for TLP.

As a prole I can afford top be a little more idealistic and try to do my little bit, but not too much so's I loose all my marbles.

SenoraPostrophe Mon 25-Jul-05 19:51:47

there'sno way the greens would have gone to war. I think the Lib Dem stance was genuine too - they would have waited (although theymay have gone to war eventually).

monkeytrousers Mon 25-Jul-05 19:59:03

Oh, I don't doubt they're genuine. Just not...realistic.

Papillon Mon 25-Jul-05 20:42:12

From the perspective of the NZ Green party going to war would be a bizarre concept and is not part of their reality.

The reason I titled this thread ´challenging the current approach´is because I believe current monopoly FTP voting system (like UK has) influences and effects potential of an evolving reality of the political machine. Because we are so settled in one or the other (Tory and Labour in UK) party then perceiving the potential of anything else is outside the voting security blanket.

I am no political expert either - I am kinda amused with myself that I have started this thread! But I have experienced MMP and now living in Switzerland - Federalism. Federalism is where power is divided, each Canton is quite independent (like the States of the US). But the Presidential figurehead is very different. In the executive, each year there is a different President of the Executive, but they don´t make the laws themselves but execute them. There is alot more to it and will try and find a good website with an explanation.

Like you MT my dh is far more the expert!

monkeytrousers Mon 25-Jul-05 20:50:07

I think if you don't have delusions of grandeur, like the Brits definitley do have, then systems like that wouldn't be a problem. But I think part of the Brit identity is that it believes it a divine right to be centrally placed in the world. That it's riches were founded on the rape and pillage of nations isn't something which clouds it's national conscience. Just like the US..and Robbie William's..Sing when you're winning. He's a dick isn't he?

monkeytrousers Mon 25-Jul-05 20:51:07

Sorry, fit to drop now! get back to you tomorrow..

Papillon Mon 25-Jul-05 20:55:52

Good point... sleep

I feel inspired to lobby for a change in the political system in the UK and I don´t even live there!!!

Sweet dreams - I am off to be lulled by the iPod.

katymac Mon 25-Jul-05 20:57:38

My dad has believed (for over 20 yrs) that the lib dems have the best idea - with electoral reform. He truly believes that FTP is a very bad way to elect our MP's

I feel that the current system is flawed....there really needs to be the option "I have no faith in any candidates" - so that not voting is a less appealing option

monkeytrousers Mon 25-Jul-05 22:36:44

The reports from Niger are just appauling. As a mother I have averted my eyes as it's just too much to take, but this isn't the right response. This was a predicted catastrophy. And where the BBC did well with a resonably nuanced report on Muslims from Bradford (after the Niger report), it was followed, by god knows how long, with Heath's funeral. The cathedral full of faces actively responsible for what is happening there. Again such blatant disregard and fundamental racism. We really need a new approach to it all! And the BBC can and should be a voice leading the way! It's all too too apathetic and contemptible.

edam Mon 25-Jul-05 22:47:23

So what do we do about it all? About the spineless politicians who have to see those dreadful pictures from Niger before they will act – and us, the spineless public, who have to see dreadful pictures like these before we call on our politicians to act?

About the Islamic extremists who hate us - ordinary people of every religion and no religion, living in Western democracies - so much they want to slaughter us? About the extremist policies our Governments pursue in places like Iraq that feed this terrorism? About the 25000 poor civilians killed in Iraq and about the 753 killed and injured in London (including the poor man shot by police)?

I wish I knew the answer. I wish there was an answer. ATM it just all seems so bloody hopeless. So far all I've managed to do is donate £25 to save the children and ramble on here about Stockwell... err and that's pretty much it. What can I do?

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