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Anyone with some Jewish knowledge .......

(30 Posts)
Bugsy2 Wed 29-Jun-05 15:18:44

who could explain the difference between Kosher & Kashrut?

alibubbles Wed 29-Jun-05 16:18:16

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Bugsy2 Wed 29-Jun-05 16:22:37

Thanks Alibubbles. We had a bit of a debate in the office. We are hosting a lunch at which quite alot of Jewish people will be attending. I thought the invite ought to say "please let us know if you would prefer a Kosher meal" but my colleague insisted it should be "a Kashrut meal".
Obviously, I want to be right and think she is just showing off!!!!!

lisalisa Wed 29-Jun-05 16:26:05

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motherinferior Wed 29-Jun-05 16:31:06

So kosher is an adjective, kashrut is a noun (the state of keeping kosher)?

hester Wed 29-Jun-05 16:32:06

Just crashing this thread to say hi lisalisa, hi motherinferior

Bugsy2 Wed 29-Jun-05 16:46:51

I've just looked up a Jewish information site and I am right! She was so bloody adament though (used to have a Jewish boyfriend) & all the invites have gone out with "Kashrut" on them which will make us look clueless. Grrrrr!

lisalisa Mon 04-Jul-05 11:25:31

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frogs Tue 05-Jul-05 13:29:07

Can I hijack this thread to ask a related question?

What is the difference between the terms "orthodox", "ultra-orthodox", "hassidic", "lubavitch" and "charedi"? We live on the edge of a very large ?hassidic community, and I've always wondered exactly what these terms mean.

Ellbell Tue 05-Jul-05 13:55:29

Frogs... Go to the BBC Radio 4 website and search for 'Beyond Belief' with Ernie Ray (sp?). I caught the first 5 minutes of this in the car on my way home from work yesterday and they were talking precisely about the different 'strands' of modern Judaism. The Radio 4 website has a 'listen again' facility!

And a related question (again, apologies for the hijack)... I have a student working on a Jewish author, but neither she nor I are Jewish. Is it offensive, do you think, to talk about 'the Old Testament'? The author uses biblical references quite a lot. But does the term 'Old Testament' imply that the OT is somehow 'incomplete'... (Don't think I'm explaining this well... it's that I don't want the impression to be given that the Christian point of view is the 'correct' one... does that make sense?). Thanks.

Twiglett Tue 05-Jul-05 14:15:49


No Old Testament is fine as it differentiates between the 2

orthodox - is the term for following the old ways and used in juxtaposition to reform (liberal) as in following slightly revised traditions ie fast for 24 hours instead of 25 and women rabbis

"ultra-orthodox" - is a little more strident followers of orthodoxy so women would wear wigs once married etc

"hassidic" - dress like they were from the middle ages .. long black coats etc

not sure on "lubavitch" and "charedi"?

marialuisa Tue 05-Jul-05 14:59:13

Charedi is the term for religious jews so in many ways same as Ultra-orthodox (wigs for women, lots of kids, beards) My aunt refers to all ultra-orthodox Jews as "Frummies" (which is Yiddish and somewhat insulting as far as I understand from her tome!)

Lubavitch is a term for someone who follows the teachings of a particular Hassidic sect (again the hats, the coats)

Hope that's rights, my Aunt's a Sephardi Jew and describes herself as "liberal" so apologies if anything's offensive.

Sparks Tue 05-Jul-05 15:11:33

Jewish people don't use the phrase "Old Testament" as that refers to part of the Christian bible. I am Jewish and I wouldn't be offended by the use of that term, but I would not use that phrase. I might say "The Hebrew Bible" or maybe "Jewish Bible" if I need to differentiate, or possible the Hebrew name for the Bible, which is Tanakh.

Twiglett Tue 05-Jul-05 17:23:31

actually I know lots of Jewish people who use the phrase 'Old Testament'

Ellbell Tue 05-Jul-05 19:53:18

Thanks Twiglett and Sparks. I think I'll tell my student to try to use 'Hebrew Bible' or 'Jewish Bible' instead (which was my inclination, but I wasn't sure), but at least if an 'Old Testament' slips through it doesn't sound as if it would be taken badly. Interestingly (or maybe understandably, since the author was a secular - indeed, atheist - Jew who grew up in Italy) the author in question does use Christian symbolism as well as Jewish imagery...

lisalisa Wed 06-Jul-05 11:37:27

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frogs Wed 06-Jul-05 12:29:09

lisalisa, thank you for that. All my Jewish friends are completely non-religious and very scathing of any kind of observance, so I've never been able to get answers to these questions!

We live near Stamford Hill where whole streets seem to be completely Hassidic. They all wear the long black outfits (the men anyway) with different kinds of hats -- some have large circular fur ones, others black trilby-type hats. The main language seems to be Yidddish.

I'd always assumed Charedi was a synonym for Hassidic, since the former is the term that is used in the LEA's admissions brochure for local schools. So it's good to be set straight. So is the practice of women wearing wigs followed by all orthodox Jews or is that Hassidic too? And what about the long bits of hair that the little boys seeem to have in front of their ears?

<Isn't MN wonderful? Where else could you get these questions answered?>

lisalisa Wed 06-Jul-05 13:22:15

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lisalisa Wed 06-Jul-05 13:23:40

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bundle Wed 06-Jul-05 13:25:41

frogs, i live on the other side of clissold park, near finsbury park and love seeing the range of communities living in the area. i met a lovely orthodox man on the 106 bus recently and we compared numbers of children (me: 2; him: 7) and agreed how blessed we were
dd1 asks me about the (obviously) jewish children in the park, why they wear certain clothes etc but we also have liberal friends and i think she was surprised that they were jewish too!

lisalisa Wed 06-Jul-05 13:37:04

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bundle Wed 06-Jul-05 13:39:55

frogs Wed 06-Jul-05 13:54:11

That's so heartwarming about your little boy, lisalisa!

It is lovely having so many different groups living together in London. It's so common to hear people saying that so-called faith schools are divisive, but actually I think really learning to follow one religion puts children in a better position to understand others than the secular school approach which reduces all religions to cute little bits of ethnic folklore.

Yes, all my Jewish friends are very secular, although one did admit to me that his teenage rebellion had consisted of taking himself to Hebrew school to shock his (Jewish, communist, South African) parents. But he has reverted to type in adulthood.

I've always been a bit sad that it's so hard to get to know the Hassidic families, although my kids did once have a riotous time with a family of Hassidic children in the dressing-up clothes section at the Museum of Childhood.

bundle Wed 06-Jul-05 13:58:47

frogs, that's why i was so delighted to chat with the hassidic man on the bus, it was lovely to catch up with someone who normally "feels" far removed from my life. i mean, i always smile at families in the park, but there isn't the same "chatty" @ the childhood museum dressing up clothes, those bits n pieces have seen some action

frogs Wed 06-Jul-05 15:19:43

I know what you mean, bundle!

My only previous closer encounter with Hassidic families was in UCH neonatal unit. One of the fathers arrived to visit in the early hours (think it must have been the Sabbath or something that stopped him visiting during the day), and I bashed straight into him as I was staggering to the loo in the middle of the night in my post-natal kit of ancient running shorts and baggy vest top. Poor man.

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