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Contorversial BUT I've got to ask and would like to discuss

(33 Posts)
PooPooGirl Mon 27-Jun-05 09:16:55

Why do people in extremely volatile, violent and abusive relationships want and try to bring children into it?

Having been in two violant relatiomships when I was younger, I can honestly say that I would never have wanted to bring children into that relationship. It is one thing to suffer or thrive in a volatile relationship it is entirely another to inflict that on an innocent - isn't it?

I thought <stress the 'thought'> that there was staistical proof that children from violent or abusive relationships end up in similar situations as adults. If this is the case why would you want to give your children that start in life?

I understand that often abuse escalates after chidren, or that people put a one off behind them that then becomes a regular thing but I don't really understand those that are knowingly bringing innocent children into the equation.

Why does it happen and could it be deemed as child abuse? discuss..

vicimelly Mon 27-Jun-05 09:23:19

I can't speak for myself, I don't have any experience of this at all, but what if a woman in a volatile relationship got pregnant by accident and didn't believe in abortion? Yes she should leave the relationship, but from what I understand it's not as cut and dry as that and can be immensely difficult to get out of an abusive relationship?
I certainly don't believe it could be deemed as child abuse from the woman that doesn't leave - the abusive partner maybe....
Just a scenario that sprung to mind anyway!

stitch Mon 27-Jun-05 09:25:55

i dont think children are brought into a relationship like that deliberately. if anything i would imagine that the pregnancy is the spur to leave.

PooPooGirl Mon 27-Jun-05 09:29:49

Well accidental pregnancy is an entirely different thing, if I'd have got pregnant accidently I'd have been devestated . Personal choice for me wopuld have been to have a termination as once I realised the relationship had become abusive I looked for ways out.

I'm interested in those who choose to bring children into those relationships, actively try for a baby.

throckenholt Mon 27-Jun-05 09:33:46

maybe people convince themselved that a baby will make everything alright (rarely true sadly), or that things aren't really that bad ?

rickman Mon 27-Jun-05 09:34:08

Message withdrawn

basketcase Mon 27-Jun-05 09:34:25

question for you - why on earth have you "got to ask" this and want to discuss?
what are you hoping to achieve? Is this just another self congratulatory theoretical conversation where people feel good for not being this scenario themselves whilst happily spouting off how they would deal with it differently blah blah?
Or maybe it is meant to create a bit of a spat between women, hoping to get the "I never asked to get pregnant, how dare you suggest that having my child in this relationship is child abuse....etc. etc."
Sorry if this seems rather rude post, just can’t understand your motivation behind this topic at all. Women who are in abusive relationships have children for all sorts of different reasons - often before the abuse starts or because they are not prepared to accept the abuse is "that bad" or even happening at all. Some think it might "all change" once they become a family. It is wrong to generalise, stereotype and then pass judgement. Discuss this if you want, but please remember that you are discussing potential rl scenarios and your posts could be quite insulting and upsetting for more women out there than you realise.
Sorry rant over.

rickman Mon 27-Jun-05 09:40:05

Message withdrawn

PooPooGirl Mon 27-Jun-05 09:41:16

Basketcase, I posted because I can't think of a place where I could get such a varied view point and opinion than MN. There are people from every kind of background with all sorts of experience and I am interested in their views.

I think I wrote in my original post that often abuse starts after the children or escalates, I am aware of that. I also am aware that some people have no choice and are 'forced' if you like into having children.

I am, sorry that you are so angry about the thread. I hope this isn't "another self congratulatory theoretical conversation". I think I mentione dthat I had been in abusive relationship myself but I don't want to specifically isolate the conversation to 'me' I was just looking for a discussion and other people thoughts on the matter

basketcase Mon 27-Jun-05 09:48:26

ok - thats fine.
rickman, sorry. I enjoy enjoy discussing all sorts of difficult and contraversial topics and agree that discussion should be open and varied. I think it was the title of the thread that I objected to and obviously something hit a nerve. I am personally just fed up of threads that discuss really difficult issues because people seem to be a bit bored and just want to talk, spouting off posts that often seem off the top of their heads with little empathy, personal knowledge etc. things they would never dream of saying to anyone’s face if discussing with someone who had been in the situation. Obviously PPG has experience so is a little different in this case. Maybe I was a bit out of line. Perhaps it is just me being irritated at the mo (two dds screaming, dh sleeping, me trying to hold down out home business, got to entertain work clients tonight, house a mess, work deadlines building up, not doing anythign and any of it as on here instead etc. etc.) Gonna shut up, avoid threads if I don’t like the topic rather than slam others for posting and get on with my hectic life for a bit.
sorry xx

(feel quite embarrassed now)

rickman Mon 27-Jun-05 10:21:23

Message withdrawn

PooPooGirl Mon 27-Jun-05 10:34:54

Don't worry about it BC, no harm done. I knew it could be a sesitive subject/controversial so was kinda prepared for a bit of flack but I hope that people can understand that I didn't start the thread for that reason.

charliecat Mon 27-Jun-05 10:36:47

My mum was in an abusive relationship for a couple of years(he was prince charming for the first year) and didnt get out because it was her house he was in and she couldnt pick him up and get rid of him and so the abuse continued.
I was concieved, through force not choice and she stayed(through fear and having 3 kids) for another 2 years after I was born them got the courage to leave and then her mum died and when she woke up from her valium induced state she was back with him.
Thankfully she then got the balls again and we left england for scotland, even then he would drive up and terrorise us
Anyway fear and circumstance was why she stayed.

I did used to live next door to a couple and he used to beat the crap out of her and the next day she would be saying oh sweetheart and darling and they had 3 kids together, used to get right up my nose. I never could understand how she could take a beating then be all nice to him the next day. He locked her in one night, with the keys in his pocket and she couldnt get out and he was hitting her and I rang the police. Couldnt listen to that not with a baby in her belly.

Kelly1978 Mon 27-Jun-05 10:43:39

it is actually a fact that abusiveness in realtionship is most likely to start when there is pregnancy or a new baby. I fell into this category. exp startede when I was about 4 months pg, and first time he really hurt me was when dd was 6 weeks old.

This is why they started some new thign as part of antenatel care asking the mother about their relationship. Thing is, being pg or with a newbon baby, the last thign you want to do is face up to the fact the realtionship is wrong and leave.

so I stayed. A year later fell pg again. This time, it wasn't becuse I knowingly wanted to bring a child into that kind of relationship. I triedto brin the subject up with exp that I didn't want another baby. He did want another baby. So we had another baby.

I think I shut my eyes to the fact it could affect the children. When I did see that it was affecting dd, and I worried about the risk to unborn ds then I got out.

Things aren't always as black and white as they may seem.

Kelly1978 Mon 27-Jun-05 10:44:39

sorry about typos - got a baby on my lap!

outofmydeppth Mon 27-Jun-05 10:50:16

Basketcase, seems to be a habit you've developed. We all have problems but don't go shouting our mouths off in any thread we don't like the look of.

Tortington Mon 27-Jun-05 19:14:31

they are desperate for love and for something to hold the relationship together so they will be loved.

starrynight Mon 27-Jun-05 19:28:54

In my sisters case the abuse started off just after she was past the 'point of no return' in the pg (about 5 months) and she desperately wanted to be a family and hoped he would change. She left when her child was a month old and her life since has been made hell by him (7 yrs later).

I think that also, women are bullied into having a child (they have to be seen to be trying or abuse gets even worse) or are raped by their partners. More interesting a question: what the hell is wrong with men that they think its OK to beat the crap out of their pregnant partners? And what the hell is wrong with the rest of society when we question the womans position rather than the mans?

lucy5 Mon 27-Jun-05 19:43:29

Often these abusive people are very loving and attentive when they are not being abusive. I witnessed this first hand with sil. I think there is a cycle and she thought she could change him and it would all be ok because "he was so loving etc" when he wasnt beating her to a pulp, even when pregnant and then babe in arms. She left this relationship when her ds was 1 and proceeded to have another violent relationship with a man who proceeded to batter her child. She still defended this animal, I dont really want to go into anymore detail as she has made dh and my life hell to the point of nearly splitting up. Nothing we did helped and her son was returned to her by social services. There are so many issues, self cofdidence, self loathing, I could go on but I think you've got the picture. Many of these women are addicted to these type of relationships for a variety of different reasons.

starrynight Mon 27-Jun-05 21:09:56

"Many of these women are addicted to these type of relationships for a variety of different reasons. "

This kind of post always worries me - I feel it is colluding with the warped world of abusive men who insist it is a)the womans fault or b)she has made him like it. Dangerous ground.

stressedmummy Mon 27-Jun-05 21:24:20

What you said there Lucy5 has rung home to me.
I am in, what is termed as an emotionally abusive relationship.
I had only lived with my H for 6 months before getting married & (as the result of a late mini pill) was 2 months pregnant with ds1.
The nasty things only started to happen after we were married & I have only really seen his behaviour as being abusive in the last 6 months or so (since I started a post on MN)
The shock conception of ds2 (very unplanned) tipped things over the edge & we have had some VERY hard times recently.
ATM, we have recently had a BIG talk & he is going through the loving husband & father stage, but I am now getting wise 2 the fact it won't last.
I was just saying to my HV today, that I feel like a very irresponsable mother to be still here, but I haven't quite got the strength to leave yet.
I will however do it for my children if it comes to it.

zippy539 Mon 27-Jun-05 21:34:00

I don't know. I was in a very abusive relationship before I met dh and had children. All I can say it that I think I am a strong and confident person, but my 'partner' gradually manipulated me (and more importantly isolated me from friends and family) until I felt I was completely dependent on him. I went back so many times for more of the same, which I can hardly believe now, but he was so bloody charming and lovely when he wasn't being violent/emotionally cruel (often worse than actual violence).

I don't know what I would have done if I had got pg by him - I was younger then and probably wouldn't have had the baby - but more because of my age, career etc than the actual relationship. TBH at times during that relationship I would have welcomed a baby - thinking that it would make him respect/love me more - obviously I know that is nonsense now - nothing would have changed, but maybe that is a motivation for some women,

All I'm saying is, it isn't cut and dried. From the outside it is easy to 'judge' these sort of relationships on a very simple level but they aren't simple. Yes - they are always bad - violence of any kind is completely unacceptable, but when you are in that situation, everything becomes very blurry and confusing. I just hope that if I had become pg when with him, I would have snapped out of it sooner and left for the sake of my child.

lucy5 Mon 27-Jun-05 23:50:29

I agree with you Zippy, it is complicated. I was by no means inferring that it is the womens fault but having been involved with sister in law . I was talking about a very specific case in which my 8 year old nephew was abused, so violently that it was the worst case that social services had ever seen. We were told one more day and he would have been dead. His mother hid him in a cupboard and was then caught by the police pasing him beaten and bruised out of a window to his abuser. I didnt buy the sob story she gave, I know her and her relationships and have helped and housed her a million times. I always believed that she would protect her child. As a mother I have absolutely no sympathy for her, if that b***d had laid one finger on my child I would have been gone. She had escaped violence before,she knew what to do. She was a 36 year old women with a 21 year old partner colluding with him in the torture of her child, protecting the abuser not the abused. I was talking specifically not generally and believe me, I know dangerous ground when im treading on it. I put my marriage and child at risk trying to help my nephew, but thats another story.

lucy5 Tue 28-Jun-05 12:44:06

Stressedmummy when the time is right you will find the strength.

I was not judging or accusing anybody except for my sil and I have every right to do that. I'm sorry if I came on a bit strong, you can obviously see that I am still very angry about this particular situation and am very sorry if I have offended anybody

fishfinger Tue 28-Jun-05 12:45:23

I dont understand why mediclaly depressed people have babies tillt heyve sorted their metal health out.

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