Paternity Leave and Dependents Leave

[Ruth21]

My union is in the process of negotiating policies on paternity leave and dependents leave and I was hoping some of you could give me examples of good employment policies that we could use to improve things around here.

They (management) are proposing that new fathers get 1 week at full pay + 1 week at SMP levels if they have 1 years service, and 1 week at SMP levels if they have less than 1 years service.

They also propose that people with dependents can get 2 days paid leave for children's (etc) illnesses in any one year.

These policies don't seem very generous to me, especially the latter, but I'd be interested in what others think and what other employers do.

Also, do your employers have policies that allow new parents who are not fathers to take 'paternity leave'? For instance when my dp had dd I took time off as annual leave, and didn't try to take advantage of paternity leave provisions--was on a temporary contract then and didn't want to rock the boat. But what should such leave be called? Paternity obviously not appropriate ... new parents' leave? New babies' leave ...?

[WideWebWitch]

Hi Ruth, I don't have any examples of good practice but I agree with you that the 2 days paid leave for people with dependents sounds very low. Errr, 2 days sickness in a year? Even if you agree that you take those 2 days each as a couple that's only 4 days a year. Chickenpox alone for one child could wipe that out for both partners! I think 'new parents leave' sounds good as a description for new parents who aren't necessarily fathers. I think the new fathers leave of 2 weeks sounds low too but there you go, in my ideal little world they'd get an awful lot longer!

[jac34]

I work for an NHS trust, we get:-
Two weeks paid paternity leave.
Up to 5 days "special leave", this can be for illness of dependents/spouse or household emergency.
However, this is negotiable, I think if you have taken about 3 days special leave, they try to get you to take some annual leave as well.
This has only been for the last 2 years, when I returned to work after having my DS twins (4yo now), I used my entire annual leave entitlement on their illnesses.

[bells2]

I work for one of the world's largest banks. They finally introduced a paternity policy last year. It is a whopping 3 days on full pay.My husband's firm's policy is 2 days on full pay although when I had my last baby he wasn't entitled to any as he had been there less than a year.

[bells2]

And neither firm offers any paid leave at all for childrens/dependenets illness.

[Bozza]

I don't think the paternity leave is too bad. Although I think two weeks at full pay for people with service and two weeks at SMP for people without the service. You don't need less time off because you are new but I can appreciate why the company might be reluctant to pay full wack.

I get know time off for family emergencies/sick child/child's checkups & appts. So I can either take leave or because I only work 3 days make it up on my days off. This is major hassle due to childcare but I have done it. DH gets time off/can work at home at his boss's discretion. His boss has fortunately proved very generous. I would really struggle though if I worked full time.

[Janeway]

my partner got 5 days paterninty leave at full pay - neither of us get paid dependant's leave. We've not tried operating the statutory unpaid variety but have either used up holiday entitlement or agreed to make up the hours evenings/weekends etc.

[slug]

DH was offered 3 days, later extended to 5 (grudgingly) because both dd and I were still in hospital. He worked for the NHS at the time.

Crap isn't it?

[Ruth21]

Yes, it's crap. Thanks for examples--would appreciate more, especially from anyone whose employer has an excellent policy that we can hold up as a shining example! Maybe we should be looking at Scandinavia ...

So far it seems worse out there than I thought. The private sector really is worse than the public. (I work for a university.)

I agree with www, 2 days paid for illness etc is not much, especially for people who are single parents. Here they say that you can take 'reasonable' further leave unpaid at their discretion --so perhaps the most important thing is to get a clear statement about what is considered reasonable.

[Janeway]

Ruth21 - I think there is a right to a total of 6 weeks unpaid parental leave to be taken prior to the childs 6th birthday in a manner to be agreed between employer/employee. This allows some flexibility in the arrangements agreed - perhaps not more than 2-3 weeks in any one year and not more than 3 consecutive days without notice??

[cas1968]

Hi,

For children DUE after 6th April 2003 (whether or not they actually arrive after that date) there is now Statutory Paternity Leave of two weeks at £100 per week. Also, it does not have to be the natural father who takes this leave, it is up to the mother to decide who takes it.

see www.inlandrevenue.gov.uk for more info

[cas1968]

Hi,

For children DUE after 6th April 2003 (whether or not they actually arrive after that date) there is now Statutory Paternity Leave of two weeks at £100 per week. Also, it does not have to be the natural father who takes this leave, it is up to the mother to decide who takes it.

see www.inlandrevenue.gov.uk for more info

[Frieda]

New dads at our place get 2 weeks paid paternity leave ? ie normal pay ? (and I'd have thought that you'd have a good case as a non-male parent for the same ? otherwise it would be discrimination, wouldn't it?). We also get up to one week "dependency care" leave (for unexpected crises, family illnesses, etc), in addition to the legally required "parental leave" provision, which gives both mothers and fathers the right to take up to 13 weeks (unpaid) leave for any purpose connected to the care of their child up until the child's 6th birthday. The company has the right to limit this to no more than 4 weeks per annum (I think), and I think you have to give a minimum of 3 weeks' notice.
You could contact the Maternity Alliance (maternityalliance.org.uk) for details of the statutory minimum allowances. Good luck

[Bozza]

Unpaid leave is all very well but if your child is ill you still have to pay the nursery, plus you then have to feed the child, heat the home etc and so you end up very much in a negative position. That is why most people use holiday, make up the hours etc rather than invoke this option.

[Ruth21]

The trouble with parental leave is that you have to give notice, so it is no use for any kind of emergency. Does anyone else think this is a fairly useless kind of provisionespecially since it is unpaiddespite it being trumpeted as a great family-friendly policy? Does anyone know if there is statutory provision for emergency leave?

Thanks for info on statutory paternity leave, cas.

[Philippat]

My employer (local authority has just sent round a very helpful leaflet on this subject:

Unpaid Parental leave as statutory.
Also unpaid leave at discretion of line manager for other situations including as an example school holidays.

5 days 'maternity support' leave around the time of the birth for the father the mother's partner *any other nominated carer. In addition to statutory paternity provision

5 days paid leave per year to
*arrange/attend funeral of close relative or
*care for a dependent in the event of an emergency or unforeseen difficulties

None of these count as a break in service for pensions, annual leave accrual etc. Guaranteed return to post. You have to pay pension contributions as usual for first 30 days of unpaid leave, after that you can choose whether or not to (but employer's contributions continue if you do).

[Philippat]

Sorry, missed your last posting. No statutory emergency leave (my colleague's husband has none, even though he also works for a local authority!).

[JulieF]

Yes there is a provision for emergency leave its called emergency dependants leave and it isn't restricted to parents. You could use this leave if you had an elderly relative for example, in fact anyone who is dependant on you.

It is unpaid and you can't use it to take 2 weeks off while your child recovers from chicken pox for example. You coud use it for the first couple of days while you make alternative arrangments, or if your childminder lets you down etc.

[Philippat]

That's really interesting JulieF - I must tell my colleague (her dh was told catagorically no when their twins were ill recently and he ended up taking a sickie in consequence) - do you know where you got the info?

[EmmaTMG]

I don't know if DH (Train Driver) get dependents leave though I doubt it very much. When DS2 was born he got a whopping total of......wait for it......1 day paternity leave!!!! They have very recently increased it to 3 days but I still think it's discustingly low so he'll obviously have to use holiday leave for when NO.3 arrives in september.
I think it's outrageous that he has to take holiday leave for the new baby as we can't afford the unpaid leave route.
Rant Rant Rant Rant Rant.......Arrrr that's better!

[susanmt]

GP's get money from the government to buy 2 weeks of locum cover to be taken anytime in the child's first 6 months. This was introduced just 6 weeks before ds was born. He was alocum when dd was born so just didnt work or get paid for the 2 weeks he took off. As GPs are self-employed it is up to the individual partnership to arrange for time off for illness etc - luckily my dh and his partner are really flexible as I have been ill quite a bit since ds was born, and he has been able to be around and help with the children. But we do realise we have been very lucky in all of this.
My Dad works in personnell for the civil service and his centre has just introduced 'duvet days' for staff. THis means they can take up to 5 days of A/L at short notice (like phone in that morning) and they have noticed that sick leave has dropped a lot, because people are being given the flexibility to take a day off for things like the gas man coming without having to pull a sickie. But they also get the dependents leave on top of that. You can also take a duvet day because you are hung over etc ... you dont have to give a reason, but if others are sick it can be refused.

[JulieF]

I'm sorry I don't know how to do links but if you go to www.dti.gov.uk/er/timeoff.htm it gives you all the info on your rights to emergency time off. You can also order a booklet from the DTI called Time Off for Dependants by phoning 0870 1502 500.

My dh recently took a day off when dd was ill. He works for the education authority and his boss had never heard of the leave. Dh just said its the law I'm entitled so I'm not coming in today!

[titchy]

Ruth21 can't believe you work for a university and are getting such a cr*p deal! Aren't pay and conditions set nationally?

I work at a university too and I think paternity leave is about a weeks paid plus another week at the discretion of line manager. Other time off unpaid leave or paid special leave (again at line managers discretion). However leave to look after an ill dependent is half paid and half holiday, which seems fair to me. Up to a maximum of 10 days paid, although I think if you had a very sick child there could be some leeway.

Hope this helps

[Ruth21]

Well, compared to some it's not really that bad a deal--though could be better. I just found out that Queens Uni Belfast gives 4 weeks paternity leave on full pay, which I think is the best deal in the UK I've heard of. We are using this in negotiations as the example that our place should meet!

Titchy which uni do you work for? If we had the details we might be able to use your employer as an example of good practice re dependant's leave. Pay is set nationally but this kind of thing is all down to the individual institution. (If you don't want to say publicly I think there is a way of passing private messages on mumsnet, but I don't know how--can someone help?)

[megg]

My dp is in the Navy and he's not entitled to anything. Depending on who is boss is at the time he may be allowed to take some sea leave or borrow from block leave. Its certainly not consistent because I do know of some lads who have just been allowed to take time off. They are more willing to allow time off for second and subsequent babies.

[KeepingMum]

Hi Ruth
I'm also employed by a university, I've copied this from the HR website. Unfortunately the university my dh works for doesn't have such a good policy (though it may change with the new statuatory pay. He was told he could have up to 5 days at the discretion of the uni, and that he had to tell them three weeks in advance when he wanted to take it. If I could predict exactly when a child was going to be born I wouldn't still be working here. I also agree that the Parental Leave doesn't seem to be worth the paper its written on. When do you ever really get three weeks notice of something that may require you to take a few weeks off (like chicken pox). My dh's idea is that he is going to take his 13 weeks in one go and go for a very long fishing sabbatical (minus us!)
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Paternity/Partner?s leave
Paid leave of up to 10 working days may be taken in the period from 3 months before the expected week of confinement to 3 months after the date of birth by the mother's partner (or the date of adoption in the case of adoptive parents). Paternity/partner's leave does not have to be taken at one time and can be spread over the 6 month period. When requesting this leave, the individual should provide their manager with appropriate documentation confirming the expected date of confinement or adoption. There is no service requirement for entitlement to this leave provision.

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