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11th September

(121 Posts)
Jbr Sun 01-Sep-02 15:36:16

Ok, I may as well be the one to say it, after all I don't usually run away from controversy.

If these attacks had happened in say China or Spain or any other country would they have got as much coverage as they did because America was the target.

A minute long silence is being planned now! The Government are going to be giving out "guidelines"!,12361,784376,00.html

ionesmum Sun 01-Sep-02 16:46:02

I think that one of the reasons that this was so shocking is that the U.S. thought itself to be impervious to this sort of thing, whereas most countries (including the U.K. ) have been used to terrorism. And of course this was on a scale that no-one could have believed.

I also think that most of the world was affected by this because so many nations had people in the building. There has not been anything like the attention focussed on the Washington event as on the Twin Towers.

If it had happened in China I don't think that it would have had the implications for world security in the same way that this has had. My dd could be growing up in a global conflict because of this.

ionesmum Sun 01-Sep-02 16:49:46

i hope that my first line didn't offend any Americans, I think that most of the world viewed the U.S. as somehow protected from this sort of thing, and I for one will be keeping a minute's silence in honour of those who died.

I'm noyt quite sure what this has to do with the Government though.

aloha Sun 01-Sep-02 16:52:47

I won't be keeping minute's silence. I don't see how it could benefit anyone and I also think we have so many 'silences' it debases the currency. I have a horrible feeling that George Bush plans to commemorate the event in a rather more horrific way, anyway.

Lucy123 Sun 01-Sep-02 17:35:13

JBR - I agree. It was a terrible, shocking thing (and I hate to say it, but it was also ingenious - I think it would have had substantial coverage had it occurred in another country if not as much). However the coverage and in particular the charity fund I found quite offensive. I will gladly give towards a disaster fund when money is urgently needed to treat the sick/rebuild homes/prevent disease, but the US is the richest country in the world - why can't the US government pay to send the orphans to university? (or any other orphans for that matter). Also see your point on the minute silence, Aloha. It does kind of seem silly when so many more people we also don't know have died since - we should probably simply have a "remember the dead" silence.

Rant over. Part of it is selfish, I must admit, as my birthday is the 11th of September and I think I'll have to move it now. (why can't people talk about "the terrorist attacks on America" or something instead?)

ks Sun 01-Sep-02 17:40:56

Message withdrawn

Twink Sun 01-Sep-02 18:28:05

I'm with Lucy123 on this, my dd was 2 on Sept 11th last year. I'd spent a lovely day with her, not having seen any news, dh knew but decided to wait until she'd gone to bed to tell me about it but around her tea time the phone calls started... end of beautiful birthday. I really, really wish she'd been born on her due date instead as I feel she will always have a cloud over wanting to enjoy her special day.

As to the silence, I would have thought lots of people would want to take a few minutes to reflect on what happened and to think of those affected by it, in the same way as we do on personal anniversaries but I dislike being told when on that day it should be.

Jbr has a point too, but the same could be said for example, about Western media coverage on train crashes in India with huge death tolls compared to the recent ones here or the scarce amount of coverage to the Malaysian government reaction to their hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants

Jbr Sun 01-Sep-02 20:17:15

You could argue the toss all day about "why does X" get some much coverage when "Y" got this I suppose.

It's just something bothers me about this. You can feel sorry for all people who died there - it's beyond comprehension - but that doesn't mean you have to like an administration.

The US has typically had a very complicated history.

Of course lots of people from different nations died as well.

I think the fact that it was the World Trade Centre as well. That gets more coverage than the attacks in the rest of the country. The WTC symbolised what a lot of people dislike about the psyche of the US as a country (that does not mean I am stereotyping Americans). For instance the tallest buildings etc always have to be built.

I remember footage of some people celebrating the attacks on the US. I couldn't comprehend how people who had children could do that. Then I realised to them the human factor isn't seen as such. The US is demonised as a big force for capitalism. To those mothers and fathers who were clapping, to them it was just that America is this big nasty thing out to get them.

We are suddenly getting all these McCarthyite phrases such as "Anti-American" being bandied about. I keep expecting The House of UnAmerican Activities to be re-opened!

sobernow Sun 01-Sep-02 20:20:52

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Jbr Sun 01-Sep-02 20:23:08

It's the thought of Tony Blair prescribing it to me, I think that bothers me as well.

sobernow Sun 01-Sep-02 20:36:45

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ionesmum Sun 01-Sep-02 20:51:12

Agree with the comments about Blair.

Also feel desperate for anyone whose birthday is that day.

I was p/g with dd when it happened and I can remeber thinking what a frightening world I was bringing her into.

janh Sun 01-Sep-02 21:05:06

sobernow, the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania was, allegedly, going for the White House. It was exactly that - an attack on America. The other stuff was peripheral.

I know what Jbr means by saying that a similar incident in, eg, China, wouldn't have got the same coverage, but the point about Sept 11 was that it was so stealthy and so unfair. Even the IRA generally gives warnings about bombs etc (I believe there was one for Omagh).

So many of those who died on Sept 11 were "workers" - cleaners, waiters, posties etc. And we can relate more to others from a western civilisation, who speak the same language as we do, so we identify with them more.

For what it's worth (not much I know) for a few months in 1981 I worked on the north side of the 79th floor of WTC1, around where the first plane hit, in an office in a rental suite, and I know for a fact that that suite was one of the places that nobody came down from. It's unlikely that anybody there when I was was there on Sept 11, but I know how being there felt, and I identify with the ones who were there like mad.

I won't be observing any silences either but I don't think that, just because it's America, we shouldn't sympathise with the victims and the bereaved.

threeangels Sun 01-Sep-02 21:14:10

I agree that the government should of given money to help these victims not from the charities. It did seem to get out of hand but so many goodhearted people from all over wanted to set up these funds on their own from ordinary people to the rich and famous. It seemed like everytime you turned around someone wanted to give. Not just monitery needs. Where I live our city made up a fund to purchase a brand new fire engine for a station in N.Y. Our church college of 100s of students went up to N.Y to the sight to help others donate supplies and to even comfort others wandering the streets. We were live on tv at one point. The government should of put out the help but people all over the country wanted to give to the victims families. This attck was the worst of its kind. This attack did get so much coverage because nothing this drastic has ever happened here as far as I know. The Oklahoma City bombing also got much coverage but not nearly as much as the N.Y tragedy. I will be joining in on the moment of silence along with others from other countries who lost their loved ones in this event. I myself watched this whole thing on tv. I did not witness the first plane go into the building but I did watch the 2nd one go in live. This particular event had an effect on myself personally because of the magnitude of it. The one plane that went down in I think Somerset Penn was actually on a course for the White House. Todd Beamer along with many others are the only reasons why the plane did not end up in the white house. Its sad that they deliberatly wanted to crash the plane in the ground to save others on the ground. I hope they continue hunting down as many of these killers as possible and give whats coming to them. Especially Bin Laden the mastermind.

threeangels Sun 01-Sep-02 21:14:52

Janh - looks like we were typing the samr time

Jbr Sun 01-Sep-02 21:58:55

I don't think we shouldn't care. It's horrific. I just think there's some sort of arrogance here, that I can't quite put my finger on.

I'm not even sure what I'm trying to get at. It's hard to explain.

sobernow Sun 01-Sep-02 22:14:06

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

aloha Sun 01-Sep-02 22:19:47

I think it's a mixture of things. Tony Blair's horrible simpering face everytime George Bush said he was pretty, or whatever kind of flattering the old fraud was trying at the time, the fact that more money was raised for the orphans of wealthy bond traders than would ever be raised for the children of the dispossessed, the fact that dead Americans are seen as worth so much more than the dead of any other nation, the fact that the sorrow very quickly turned into a pointless quest for revenge by that potato-headed fool Bush (whom I utterly despise). Yes, it was terribly sad that so many people died, and some people were very, very brave, but to me it was like the death of Diana. I kept thinking, why are these people who didn't know anyone involved all acting so hysterical? I know I sound heartless, but I think their deaths have already been avenged with the deaths of civilians in Afghanistan. How many more will die before Bush thinks its enough?

SofiaAmes Sun 01-Sep-02 22:32:26

Jbr, just because there was a lot of coverage (or more than another country might have gotten) doesn't mean that people didn't suffer. The thousands who died were mothers/fathers/sisters/brothers/children/loved ones of someone and it is always tragic when there are deaths.
I was in nyc on 9/11 and almost all my friends there lost someone close to them. My very best friend was supposed to be at windows on the world (top of the wtc) with her husband that morning for breakfast to celebrate their anniversary, but forgot to make a reservation in time and couldn't get in. I will never quite be the same after having been through that experience.

I probably won't observe a minute of silence because I have other ways of expressing my grief, sorrow and sympathy for everyone who lost someone, but I certainly don't feel a need to criticize those who do wish to express their sorrow in that way. Some people find it comforting to have "guidelines" that tell them how to grieve. That is why society has funerals, memorial services etc.
Similarly, Lucy123, the concept of charities is to give people an "official" way to help. The morning of 9/11 my mother and I went to give blood because we were desperate to be able to help in some way. Americans don't have the same culture of things like charity being the government's responsibility the way you do here in the uk (and the rest of europe). I find it very strange that you would be offended by people wishing to give to a fund to help the victims of 9/11. Perhaps you have a different choice of charities to give to... well go ahead, no one is telling you that you made the wrong choice and felt sorry for the wrong people.

ok done with my rant.

JayTree Sun 01-Sep-02 23:11:11

I do understand what you are getting at, JBR, as I cringed when Diana’s death became a media circus to the point where I felt a little embarrassed when I sat dry eyed surrounded by three of my closest friends sobbing uncontrollably over her funeral.
However, I feel very differently about the events of September 11th. The attacks are too awful and too global to let the media’s style/lquantity/approach to the reporting of this to get in the way of the facts for me. It is only a year ago and already so many of us are becoming complacent or unconsciously dismissive of the events. I feel that even the media cannot begin to overstate how tragic and appalling it is. For once, they cannot get close. When they get it wrong and put out overly personal or inappropriate reports about it, for me it just highlights the feeling of futility and pathos.
I have no personal links with America, have never been there and no of no-one who has suffered directly. However, I still cannot help but cry when I see the awful footage of the towers coming down and those poor souls jumping from windows. I guess what I am trying to say in a round and about way is to ask you not to let those politicians and media bosses make you feel jaded or bored about this one. It is too awful to allow ourselves to be sidetracked and forget the real issues here.
(I totally agree with you SofiaAmes - I wrote this before I read your last posting, had to go up and calm down dd in between writing and posting!)

JayTree Sun 01-Sep-02 23:39:24

wow - just noticed the time on my last posting - 11:11:11 - just a little coincidence but couldn’t help but comment on it!

robinw Mon 02-Sep-02 07:00:30

message withdrawn

Girly Mon 02-Sep-02 09:56:40

I was pregnant with ds on 9/11, it is also our wedding anniversary. We had an awful day, had huge row with dh (most unusual - prob distress and hormones). We also have family in NY so were worried about them. Dh and i spent the evening watching the news in horror, cannot think of a more dreadful day all in all.

This year we shall be in France for our anniversary with kids and PIL, so shall try and enjoy ourselves, am i selfish for wanting to block this all out?

Joe1 Mon 02-Sep-02 10:12:31

I know how some of you feel about things happening on what should be a special day, Princess Diana died on my 30th birthday.

Lucy123 Mon 02-Sep-02 10:14:48

SofiaAmes - I was tired last night, may have written my post too quickly. I like your giving blood thing - a very good idea and very useful (I would do the same if the Spanish would accept my blood - they think I must have BSE).

My point really was that while I see the need for some memorial/money for survivors, this disaster was absolutely nothing on the scale of, eg. most famines in Africa where more people suffer directly and money is all the more important. It wasn't the charity fund per se I objected to, but the gala rock concert and all the big companies replacing their usual charity with that one for a while - I read US donations to other charities were substantially down last year. And of course the wtc victims received rather a lot more help than the Afghan refugees (yes it was their government causing most of their problems, but why should that matter). It just annoys me.

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