Genuine dilemma about the morality of procreation

[DrPeanuts]

Hi there, this is my first post and I wasn't sure where it should go, so if someone needs to move it to a different topic, feel free.

It's a bit long, so thanks in advance if you get through it!

I am 36, male, and do not have children. I am very preoccupied at the moment with the possibility of bringing a life into this world that will inevitably experience a lot of pain and suffering.

I am not particularly unhappy. I don't find life easy but for the most part I think I can see the positive in things and make the best of what I have. This has, however, taken me a long time to learn.

I have had periods of extreme pain and misery in my life, for various reasons. My parents are alive and I have a generally good relationship with my mother, though she tends to shut down in the face of my suffering. My father is essentially absent - remarried and with a new family in a different country. At my lowest times I have found myself wondering why they brought me here - how they justify it? I know that airing these feelings is potentially hurtful, especially to people close to me, but also to people with their own kids, so I apologise to you all for that. All of this is not to say that my parents haven't supported me in innumerable ways over the years - of course they have and I know it could have been so much worse.

The other day, a guy in my office brought his baby in to show everyone. Some of the women in the office made a joke about how she will have to marry a rich man in order to not end up in a crappy job like them (for the record, I quite like working there, but have to admit a lot of people are stressed out and struggling). Ok, it was a joke, but I couldn't help seeing something darker under the surface - the vast majority of people's kids are indeed going to end up slaving away in crap jobs. School bullies, bad bosses, unscrupulous landlords, tyrannical governments, a culture of dissatisfaction and competition - all things that so many of us experience. I don't want to be responsible for subjecting someone to any of it.

Now at this point, the answer probably seems obvious: don't have kids. BUT, here's the thing. I have a partner who I love more than I ever thought I could love anyone. She is the best friend I've ever had and I want nothing more than to share my life with her, to be there for her in whatever she comes up against, to make her feel as comforted and supported as she does me.

She wants children - perhaps not immediately, but it's there. She told me recently about how difficult her childhood and adolescence were due to her parents' emotional unavailability - I have no doubt, on the other hand, that she would/will make a wonderful mother. She is realistic about life containig a lot of bad (and also a lot of good, of course), but the sticking point is that she doesn't see this as a reason not to have kids. Sometimes I think that if someone as wonderful and generous and smart as her thinks it's a good idea, then maybe it is!

To be clear, my aversion to having kids is not to do with how they will affect my lifestyle or anything like that. I just don't know how I would handle the guilt that would accompany any moment of suffering that befell them.

I'm not here to troll you, and I don't have any kind of child-free/antinatalist agenda. On the contrary, the fact that you people come here and discuss the ins and outs of parenting implies to me that there are a lot of thoughtful, caring people here who just might be able to offer some insight. And insight is what I'm looking for, as opposed to advice. I just want to know whether anyone with children has had similar feelings and how you dealt with/continue to deal with them.

TL;DR - is it wrong to bring children into a life involving so much suffering?

Thanks for your time.

[HidCat]

It is optimism that allows us to bring children into the world. I think the challenge then is to educate the children to know that life can be hard and as adults we have to make things happen to achieve the lifestyle that we want.

If you think back say 40 years ago people strived for a roof over their heads, to be able to pay gas, electric, water and put food on the table with a little something left over afterwards. Now we expect mobile phones, subscription TV, eating out and going to the pub, new cars, fancy holidays to the other side of the world etc. If you take the materialistic things away and keep life simple it's very easy to find the joy in life! Most of the struggles we make for ourselves by trying to keep up with the Jones's.

[Nb65988]

I agree and disagree there are kids bringing kids into the world because they get pregnant by mistake who's fault is that is it hers or did her parents not put her on birth control or u get couples who are doing IVF and desperate for a child and are disappointed each time then there's kids in care how can u live with yourself if that happened but then there's the couple's who have been together for years been through it all like me I have 3 boys they are my best achievement to date they are baby 8 an 10 my oldest has autism ive fought the system for him hes so smart he wants to go to uni I will do anything to make that happen then. Connor I've told him u either get a trade or he's going to Marine I teach them daily about growing up what not to do and what to do and the best part is when im old and need help I'll have 3 boys there to look after me I would hate to be alone at the end

[SuperLoudPoppingAction]

I felt like you did in the past.
Part of it was that I was really depressed.
Part of it I do still agree with to a degree.
However I do think my children have been OK so far. I hope they will continue to be OK.
I've tried to encourage them along paths in life that will be more likely to result in greater happiness.

I think that if you're certain about not wanting children you could be very honest with your partner about it so she can have the full picture of what your future together will look like.

You could both still volunteer with children. You could both spend time with young relatives. It's not as though having your own children is the only way to contribute to the life of a young person.

Some people do really want their own children though.

[troodiedoo]

I get where you're coming from. But remember most people are decent and kind. You can't protect your future child from everything but you can help and guide them. And some bad things are part of life learning.
When you think about being responsible for another human it is indeed overwhelming. But the reality wouldn't be like that as you won't have time to over think. You just take it one day at a time.

[Mumofstar]

@SuperLoudPoppingAction and @DrPeanuts I agree with you both and felt this way. In some ways I still do (I have a 3 month old baby). As trite as it sounded to me I, now, have to agree with all of the parents who ever said that you'll understand when you have your own child.

As miserable as the world is sometimes, when you're guiding a child into the world, you are seeing the world through their eyes. As they learn, for example, how to communicate their happiness with their first smiles (at about 6 weeks old) you're overwhelmed with joy and can't keep your happiness in. Being a new parent is overwhelming (and probably actually addictive) and completely amazing (unless you're a developmental biologist/psychologist) because you're learning about human development in real time. Each new experience for your child is new to you too and, honestly, it makes you feel completely alive.

You, literally, stop watching the news and exist to keep them happy and healthy which is convenient because in the sleep-deprived state our intuition kicks in. The "baby bubble" is a blissful place to be. I knew the latter would happen and my qualm with this life choice was whether I wanted someone to be completely dependent on me. I, too, wasn't inspired by my parents' example so it wasn't something I aspired to. I found it hard to see how parenting would be rewarding enough to make me want the upheaval in my life and the risk of heartache if something went wrong. I never craved a child's love and dependence. In fact, I feared that I would be too like my parents and produce a child also who wonders why their parents are so distant. Rest assured that if you are conscious of this, without even trying, you will not turn out like them.

However, a little bit like the quotation "bad things happen when good people do nothing" (OWTTE), the fact that you've given it a lot of thought and clearly adore your partner are good reasons to want to raise a good, sensitive, cared-for human being into the world. The world needs good citizens and, as long as you intend to raise one, then you'll enjoy being a parent.

From a female perspective and IMPO, men who are (good) fathers are more confident, self-assured people. Think of that age old rom-com plot line of the guy who's panicking because he's about to become a parent for the first time and turns to the friend who's now a father for advice. The wise father is confident and charismatic.

Your post resonated with me so I won't apologise for the long post. Keep the thread alive if you want to chat more.

[CoffeeAndCode]

Sounds like you've been listening to David Benatar.

I don't really have any specific answer to the antinatalist position other than one of hope.

If everyone decided that having children was essentially a net negative on the overall happiness of the species then the species would of course die out.

Perhaps you think that would be a good thing. Personally I think that would be sad. Part of being human is hoping for a better future, hoping for better for your children, hoping that you can help effect that change for others.

I see children as being both literally and symbolically an aspect of the very human emotion of hope.

Although hope isn't always reflected well in outcome, to remove hope altogether would be to remove any possibility of a better future.

That rolling of the dice on the back of hope and in the face of reality is how we as a culture and a species got to where we are. To give up now would be to quit before success.

If you are lucky enough to have found someone you love enough to start a loving family that will not carry with it the sins of the parents then you are more fortunate than most. More fortunate than me, certainly.

So I say go for it. Hope for the best.

If the best doesn't happen, then at least pass on the message of hope that one day, all the pain will have been worth it.

[Eolian]

It is not a foregone conclusion that ypur children will suffer pain and misery. Plenty of people don't. Obviously nobody can tell the future, but I think my children are pretty likely to have happy lives. Whatever the doom-merchants say, life is generally a hell of a lot better for most people on the planet than it was 50 or 100 years ago. Anx we live in a relatively very wealthy and safe place.