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Scottish Referendum debate: Alistair Darling and Alex Salmond, Wednesday September 10th, 1.45-2.45pm

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MNHQ have commented on this thread.

JustineMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 09-Sep-14 08:35:59

Hi all,

We're delighted to announce that Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling will both be joining us on Mumsnet this Wednesday at 1.45pm, to take part in a live debate in the lead-up to the Scottish Referendum on September 18th.

The decision with which Scottish voters are faced this month constitutes a significant moment in the history - and future - of Scotland and the UK. And with polls currently predicting a result that's too close to call, this final showdown between the two leaders could potentially prove decisive.

The debate will be conducted along typical Mumsnet webchat lines, but with each guest free to question and respond to the answers of the other. We know the referendum has been a topic of serious discussion on the site (we're currently on IndyRef thread number seven - and counting ...) so in order to ensure that the leaders answer your questions, we're restricting the ability to post to Mumsnetters who'd been members of the site for more than 24 hours before the launch of this thread. Otherwise, the usual guidelines apply.

Please join us on Wednesday at 1.45pm - and if you can't make it then, as ever, do post up any comments or questions in advance.

prettybird Thu 11-Sep-14 19:40:52

He may have been referring to this poll which had quite a bit of publicity on here (a lot of complaints about some of the questions eg about relative attractiveness and blokeishness and the inaccuracies - like Salmond is not leader of the Yes campaign hmm). He and the Yes vote "won" in most (all?) categories.

Iirc, there were 984 responses - but some on these threads complained that they hadn't seen it. Others had, as they commented on the original thread. I certainly also got an email asking me to fill it in I already had - and I know that others for the email too.

sarine1 Thu 11-Sep-14 19:42:25

Thank you. I had followed the webchat so assumed that he was talking about that and was a bit surprised.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 11-Sep-14 19:44:05

www.mumsnet.com/politics/mumsnetters-on-scottish-referendum

Poll.

48% Yes, 41% No, 11% DK

Romeyroo Thu 11-Sep-14 19:45:06

Yes, there was a poll, but it was separate from yesterday's debate, it polled MNers in Scotland and found a majority would vote yes. On phone, so not sure how to link.

Besides, AS only answered more questions by staying longer. That shows some commitment to answering questions, but at 2.45, they had answered the same number, as far as I counted.

Romeyroo Thu 11-Sep-14 19:46:06

Xpost there...

daisyfraser Thu 11-Sep-14 19:56:43

Ok - thanks.
Page 7 of today's Times assesses yesterday's MN debate and the answers given as 12/20 for Salmond and 13/20 for Darling.

So it seems that, true to form, AS saves face by dredging up out-of-date stats after the media's general assessment that he came off worst yesterday.

And all those people intending to put the futures of their grandchildren in this man's hands!

WinifredTheLostDenver Thu 11-Sep-14 20:06:27

Some of the responses were them responding to each other's replies - think AS did this a bit more.

LineRunner Thu 11-Sep-14 20:07:23

Oh apologies. I thought a ' Mumsnet poll' might be a poll that being a Mumsnetter, and of Scots background, I might have actually known about.

unlucky83 Thu 11-Sep-14 20:13:46

Another No here who didn't know about the poll....

chemenger Thu 11-Sep-14 20:38:25

This was the poll where many of the comments were very critical of the questions, I think? Quite a few people did not complete it because of this.

tabulahrasa Thu 11-Sep-14 20:38:36

The poll was pinned to the top of active conversations for a while and I had it emailed out as well...I assume because I'm signed up for the mumsnet panel stuff.

I don't know what else they should have done?

tabulahrasa Thu 11-Sep-14 20:41:23

chemenger, yes it was the one with loads of mistakes and stupid questions about AS and AD.

Greengardenpixie Thu 11-Sep-14 22:33:51

I am a total 100% yes.
Westminster are scandalous..the press have been outrageously bias!! especially the BBC! I dont believe any of the crap sentimentality about the love of scotland and please dont separate from any of the parties. Im old enough to remember us being crapped on by parties we have never voted in. This is about being in control of our own future in Scotland...and i wholeheartedly agree. Let the scottish people get on with it. Im so sick of all the Westminster tactics. They are shocking. If you are undecided...question what you read from the BBC and look further.

TeamScotland Thu 11-Sep-14 22:38:24

DH recorded the Big Big Debate for me. Brilliant viewing for a Yesser.

I'm voting yes, I'm happy with my decision. I have friends and family voting no, and I'm happy with their decision. I've thoroughly enjoyed the debate and will keep my interest in the running of my country going whatever the result.

Greengardenpixie Thu 11-Sep-14 22:38:56

Sorry that should have said please dont seperate from England ha ha!!!

Roseformeplease Thu 11-Sep-14 22:43:36

Further, Greengarden? What to wingsoverscotland? Or some of the other biased stuff being peddled by Yes.

You don't like the fact at you are losing the debate because questions are being answered with shouting and bulky tactics. And so, you cry foul.

I bet your campaign are the sort tipped over the Monopoly board when they lost.

Look very closely at Alex Salmond. Very closely. If you look closely enough you will see that the emperor isn't wearing any clothes.

TeamScotland Thu 11-Sep-14 22:50:09

It isn't about Salmond. It is about the people of Scotland having a government they voted for, every single election, forever.

clam Thu 11-Sep-14 22:54:32

I really and seriously want to know from Alex Salmond the counter arguments to all the (mainly financial) points being raised from many quarters in recent days. However, all he ever seems to say is that Westminster is "panicking, scare-mongering and bullying.

It's quite worrying that that is his chosen answer, rather than some hard economic facts and a credible plan.

And it's all very well the Scots banging on about being in charge of their own affairs - how's that going to work when they have no currency to use, are hanging around waiting to see if the EU will accept them, many large-scale businesses are de-camping south of the border as soon as you can say RBS and their oil reserves are proven to be running out fast?

Roseformeplease Thu 11-Sep-14 23:02:25

Do you know. That is rubbish. The "people of Scotland" are not one thing who all vote one way and are all ignored. Some vote Conservative, some Liberal, some Green, many vote Labour. In the last general election the figures for SNP were not significantly higher than for Conservative.

Interesting to see the history lesson on the news tonight. It was when the SNP withdrew support for Labour in 1979 that the subsequent general election brought the Conservatives to power, overwhelmingly.

Many people who live in Scotland (not the people of Scotland - I am British) actually voted for what they have got in Westminster - a coalition.

Grow up. I did not vote for the SNP and yet I have to go through this, quite frankly terrifying, referendum to appease a minority view.

You are, if anything, massively over-represented; I have 3 councillor in my ward; the Council itself; my area MSP; the list MSPs; an MP, an MEP.

Bloody hell. Every single one of them with their noses in the trough and their meetings and their expensive decisions. But, I am democratically represented.

If you are not represented because you didn't vote for what the majority
did, you get another shot at it.

I face a future in a foreign country, peopled by bigots and those who hate my country and blame it for all the ills of the world. And there is no turning back.

Greengardenpixie Thu 11-Sep-14 23:13:22

Roseformeplease Well first let me start by correcting your assumptions

It has been proven, beyond any doubt, that the referendum bias is solely the product of mainstream media namely BBC and newspapers and you like many on this board are being manipulated by those within the No Campaign.

Ask yourself why, why does the UK government want to keep Scotland so much, it has never shown any interest in developing it to make it a better place. Could it be the same thing they want to "protect" the Falkland Islanders or the illegal war they brought us all into in Iraq.

When you wake up and see your Government blatantly lying to you, you too will see this my way.

Ask yourself, do you want to run your childrens affairs all their life or do you want them to grow and make their own way in life - why would anyone not want that, the only difference is YES Campaign want it on a larger scale.

Finally, you like many millions across the UK are being lied to everyday as the Public Service Broadcaster BBC and possibly others whom we pay for through our taxes and licence fees should be there to report FACTS. Instead they edits out the bits they don't want you to know, successive Governments have withheld professional reports that prove Scotlands case because it is contrary to Westminsters agenda.

You need to inform yourself of the FACTS before you take part and voice opinion I wont tell you where to look, but I would ask you to take the time to look and you will find them. Then once armed with FACTS come back to see if your opinion has changed

Finally you need to understand that this is a grassroots movement with every sector of Scottish life represented, this is no longer a project of a political party.

tabulahrasa Thu 11-Sep-14 23:18:58

"Grow up. I did not vote for the SNP and yet I have to go through this, quite frankly terrifying, referendum to appease a minority view."

All the polls are coming back in at least the high 40s for yes...that's only just a minority view.

You may disagree and it may well come back as a no next week, but it is looking to be a very close run thing, that's nearly half the population saying yes.

OOAOML Thu 11-Sep-14 23:31:00

Why do Yes people like to write FACT in capital letters? Does it somehow make your opinion more convincing?

I've looked at lots of facts, followed many links from both Yes and No. I'm still voting No.

StatisticallyChallenged Thu 11-Sep-14 23:37:30

I've eaten too much chocolate. FACT grin

Greengardenpixie Thu 11-Sep-14 23:38:24

clam in answer to your comments, I agree you should be given the facts about how an indy Scotland will provide financial stability.

However it is not in Alex Salmond's gift. Instead this is in Mr Carney's gift. Mr Carney of the Bank of England.

He, and he alone, has the absolute control that will trigger financial collapse of UK financial position and he fully intends to cause the collapse of the Pound - why. For one reason - The UK Government cannot pay the obscene level of debt they have built up over the last three decades and the only way they pay their debt is by devaluing our Pound. This means those with savings, property, pensions etc across the UK will all be shafted as the value of these assets is effectively stolen by stealth by the UK treasury - don't believe me - take a read of Money Week

As for oil, geophys studies prove beyond any doubt that a massive oil field way bigger than the North Sea fields have produced is accessible if the nuclear presence on the Clyde was relocated.
We already have a currency its called the Pound Sterling
The EU will accept Scotland as they are on record as being a body that enables and empowers self determination
Large scale businesses are making CONTINGENCY plans which is both pragmatic and sensible to protect their legal responsibilities as the majority of their customers reside in England

As said to Roseformeplease look for the FACTS and place yourself in a state of vulnerable openmindedness to inform yourself. If you do, you will find that you are free of the thought constraints of those with vested interests trying to manipulate to achieve and fulfill THEIR agenda and not necessarily yours.

Greengardenpixie Thu 11-Sep-14 23:49:06

OOAOML use of caps is for emphasis, as its difficult to relate effectively in type, did't think anyone needed this explained.

Its also very interesting to note how many MNers say what their voting intention would be but not where they live - how distorted is that.
Surely to have any validity in voting stats the only relevant opinions are from those residing in Scotland - (Scots background doesn't count either)

TeamScotland Thu 11-Sep-14 23:49:27

Banging on about running our own affairs? How very dare we?

StatisticallyChallenged Thu 11-Sep-14 23:50:01

However it is not in Alex Salmond's gift. Instead this is in Mr Carney's gift. Mr Carney of the Bank of England.

No, it is not. An independent Scotland would be leaving the UK. The BoE is a UK institution - it has no responsibility to provide financial stability to an independent Scotland

It is not him and him only who makes the decision, assuming you are referring to a currency union. That is a political decision - it's not within the remit of the BoE to take the UK in to a currency union.

OOAOML Thu 11-Sep-14 23:54:50

Green I just think it is interesting because I have so often seen an opinion followed by FACT

And why is it distorted that we aren't saying where we live - this is online discussion not official polling. I don't recognise your name but if you've been on the many threads we've had (they move fast so I may not have seen you, I do tend to remember those I see often though) you'd know that quite a few Yes and No MNers have indicated roughly where we live. I don't see why I need to put it in every post.

redbinneo Fri 12-Sep-14 00:02:50

Green*
"The EU will accept Scotland as they are on record as being a body that enables and empowers self determination"
No they are not, the EU is an entity that wishes to incorporate independent nations into a pan European federal state. An independent Scotland as a member of the EU will have even less influence and control over it's own affairs than it does now .
Real independence means leaving the UK and leaving the EU. Salmond knows this, he just hasn't got the balls to say it.

Greengardenpixie Fri 12-Sep-14 00:03:58

StatisticallyChallenged
OK lets start with the present - Scotland is currently part of the UK, upon the decison of the Scottish elecorate on the 18th Sep. It will remain a part of the the UK until a date agreed by all parties is announced in the event of a YES vote. Until that date currentl 24 Mar 2016 the BoE sets the rules on interest rate for Scotland as well as the Rump (rUK). It is a known fact that Mr Carney has resisted increasing interest rates but has already stated plans to do just that when certain conditions are met. These will be political conditions set by the UK Government. Therefore until indy date is agreed BoE continues to provide financial stability to an independent Scotland

The future - Due to the relative stability offered by the continuing oversight from BoE - it is extremely likely that all political parties will agree to the proposed currency union or face being left to pay ALL of the acquired UK debt. Scotland leaves to start a new chapter while Westminster humps the Rump

redbinneo Fri 12-Sep-14 00:10:22

Green*
If the UK had wanted to be part of a CU we would be using the Euro by now.
Salmonds threat to abandon our debt is unenforceable. In the event of independence we will be relying on the UK to collect our taxes and give us the money back. rUK will control our finances and Salmond is trying to negotiate by threat.He is desperate.

StatisticallyChallenged Fri 12-Sep-14 00:12:00

Yes, Until independence. You were talking about financial stability in indy scotland in your earlier post. Until March 2016 that doesn't exist. So my response stands, providing financial stability in an Independent Scotland is not Mark Carney's problem. Salmond assumed he could have a currency union.

rUK public against currency union. All major parties against currency union.
Moody's have stated that a currency union would be a credit rating negative event for rUK. Credit Suisse have opined that in order to agree to a CU rUK would demand a very strict union with terms likely to include Scotland having a positive budgetary surplus.

BoE is already having to guarantee all of the debt anyway.

redbinneo Fri 12-Sep-14 00:14:44

Green*
"It has been proven, beyond any doubt, that the referendum bias is solely the product of mainstream media namely BBC"

Please provide evidence of the proof, otherwisw I might be tempted to think that you are a chancer and just making it up as you go along. Are you Salmond in disguise?

Greengardenpixie Fri 12-Sep-14 00:16:48

OOAOML
why is it distorted that we aren't saying where we live - this is online discussion not official polling

Its distorted because if you reside outside Scotland you don't get to make your mark, therefore your opinion is somewhat irrelevant regardless how well its made. Do you offer opinion on the Catalonian referendum? if not why not.

Greengardenpixie Fri 12-Sep-14 00:20:01

redbinneo two separate sources with just a couple of mouse clicks

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCEQFjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.opendemocracy.net%2Fourkingdom%2Fjohn-robertson-oliver-huitson%2Finterview-bbc-bias-bullying-and-scottish-referendum&ei=xy0SVJyXM4_batjOgJAF&usg=AFQjCNEhpxgtmV4U3zZODz0ZvWhQGZ_NyQ&sig2=i2vO_jyY5V8_5lbwYOP3jA&bvm=bv.75097201,d.bGQ

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDMQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.stv.tv%2Fpolitics%2F268054-john-robertson-blasts-coverage-of-research-into-referendum-media-bias%2F&ei=xy0SVJyXM4_batjOgJAF&usg=AFQjCNHwhBH7Lkl8XWXCxoo8OOppJpHrzQ&sig2=qhrp2sJ2e6qqcRRRZBj5kA&bvm=bv.75097201,d.bGQ

OOAOML Fri 12-Sep-14 00:31:48

OOAOML use of caps is for emphasis, as its difficult to relate effectively in type, did't think anyone needed this explained.

Yes, I do realise that. My comment was on the habit of some people to repeatedly finish sentences with FACT when they have generally merely stated an opinion or interpretation. We seem to be at cross-purposes.

*Its also very interesting to note how many MNers say what their voting intention would be but not where they live - how distorted is that.
Surely to have any validity in voting stats the only relevant opinions are from those residing in Scotland - (Scots background doesn't count either)*

The above is what you said. I repeat that this is a discussion, not an official poll. Did I miss the post where you provided your address? And I'm of the opinion that the views of those outside Scotland do have a place here. The decision affects a lot more than those who live here. My sister is Scottish but has no vote - do you expect her to have no opinion? The views of Scottish non-resident celebrities are brought into the debate by both sides. Non Scottish people living in the UK will be impacted by the decision. We're not voting in this thread, we're just discussing. I'm sorry you think some people's opinions are not relevant.

StatisticallyChallenged Fri 12-Sep-14 00:33:32

Two separate reports of the same single piece of research which has been out for months and covered a research period which ended a year ago.

Greengardenpixie Fri 12-Sep-14 00:49:10

StatisticallyChallenged I didn't say it was released yesterday merely suggesting if you look you will find. I note you don't challenge what is being said

OOAOML It is not my view that the opinion of others are irrelevant but if you choose to take my words out of context then so be it. The fact still remains the Prime Minister of the UK agreed that the approach he wanted was a single question removing the 2nd and 3rd questions from the ballot paper. As for your sister if she has chosen to live outside Scotland then she doesn't get to vote, its not like she's banished or exiled never to see her family or friends again. We may all have family living all over the world so you comment is somewhat mute

Yes you are right that non Scots and Scots living in the rest of the UK will be impacted but again blame David Cameron for that as he made the rules

StatisticallyChallenged Fri 12-Sep-14 00:54:16

No, your statement "*It has been proven, beyond any doubt, that the referendum bias is solely the product of mainstream media namely BBC and newspapers and you like many on this board are being manipulated by those within the No Campaign.*"

is not supported when you provide a single piece of evidence, produced a year ago, before the official referendum campaign period had even started. That is certainly not "proven beyond any doubt."

Greengardenpixie Fri 12-Sep-14 01:10:18

here's another link to what the best of the UK's political elite [who claim to be in touch with equality and modern values] has to offer in its depiction of the referendum

bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/09/11/cereal-abuse/

They are saying this about you and me.

StatisticallyChallenged Fri 12-Sep-14 01:18:33

And the fact that BT produced a crap advert proves your point about media bias how, precisely? I've seen it and slagged it off as have most people. I've also seen the utter crap being published by some parts of the Yes campaign. I include the Big White Book Of Alex Salmond's Imaginary Scotland" in that

I don't make my decisions based on media or political adverts.

unlucky83 Fri 12-Sep-14 01:53:21

What amused me about this advert was it mentioned in a discussion on Women's hour. The Pro -Yes person (Selma Rehman? I think) was saying what a terrible way to portray women, a sexist stereotype etc.
But earlier she had been talking about the first TV debate and said that the Yes campaign gained women voters after that because AD (not AS) came across as the shouty, aggressive, finger pointy man.
So lets get this straight - that advert is sexist claptrap - but it is ok to say women chose how to vote not on the basis of the facts but whether one politician is angry, shouty and pointy or not hmm - that's not patronising to women is it?

BMW6 Fri 12-Sep-14 07:25:40

Scotland leaves to start a new chapter while Westminster humps the Rump

And the people of rUK have to pay for it.

CU with iScotland with this attitude? I rather think not, Thanks all the same hmm

OOAOML Fri 12-Sep-14 10:33:49

Thanks for linking to Bella Caledonia. Nice unbiased source.

Clearly you and I are not going to agree Green.

Actually David Cameron didn't make all the rules, nice victim vibe you have going there.

You were the one who said opinions of people not living here were not relevant. However if we're going to argue semantics, my comment is not somewhat mute I presume you mean moot?

And my sister did not exactly choose to live outside Scotland - following her graduation, she moved to England to find a job, as there were no jobs in her sector in Scotland. I didn't claim she was banished or exiled - merely that she has an opinion, albeit one you think not relevant.

WildThong Fri 12-Sep-14 10:44:03

I was just about to post re that bella publication. Utterly biased pile of <steaming poo emoticon>

It's one of those things that says something about the people who read and believe it. In the same category as The Sun.

Greengardenpixie Fri 12-Sep-14 13:43:12

IF YOU ARE STILL UNDECIDED READ THIS.....

michaelgreenwell.wordpress.com/2014/09/11/if-youre-still-undecided-one/

SquattingNeville Fri 12-Sep-14 13:49:59

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ArcheryAnnie Fri 12-Sep-14 13:52:17

Am getting increasingly annoyed with my twitter feed. Am bored and irritated with the "all English are Tory bastards" line (hint: they aren't) and even more irritated with the latest I've seen, which says that men who vote no do so because they learned that at school (and haven't managed to think for themselves since) and women who vote no are doing so because... Kate.

Welp. That's not patronising at all.

I like some of these people, too. My mute function may have to be deployed pronto before I have to bring in my unfollow and block options.

Greengardenpixie Fri 12-Sep-14 13:53:11

It is not scaremongering...these are realities, they are facts that have happened. At the end of the day, do as you please but just be informed. The Westminster government has had a long history of at best letting the Scottish people down and at worst shitting on them. I know im voting yes..the rest is up to other people. I have a long memory...and i dont want scotland to be duped....yet again with empty promises.

Greengardenpixie Fri 12-Sep-14 13:55:23

...oh and threats abound.

PoppadomPreach Fri 12-Sep-14 14:15:31

Do you understand, and therefore accept, that the only way Alex Salmond can deliver true independence is to create a new currency?

If he pursues a currency union in the event of independence, as the Bank and England will be lender of last resort, and will be at risk in the event of scotland defaulting on debt repayments, the amount of powers that he will have to cede to Westminster to mitigate this risk will make the concept of independence meaningless. Devo Max offers much, much greater autonomy.

Salmond is full of empty promises. He is lying to the Scottish people. It is deception on such a large scale it is frightening.

But you know this, right? This is about giving two-fingers to these nasty smelly English people.....

OOAOML Fri 12-Sep-14 14:16:45

Green as I said to you earlier, these threads have been running for a long time. We are informed. We have read and researched widely. We may not have read every piece of propaganda you are linking to, but we are informed. We have made our decisions - for yes or for no.

I don't want Scotland being duped by empty promises either. That's why I'm voting No. I'm not convinced by the White Paper, or by the arguments of the various voices on the yes side. THere is not enough of a majority for independence. The time is not now. I don't say not ever, but not now, and not this. No Thanks.

Greengardenpixie Fri 12-Sep-14 16:01:48

Do you understand, and therefore accept, that the only way Alex Salmond can deliver true independence is to create a new currency?

No camp's 'political agenda' on currency laid bare
Wed, 05/03/2014 - 18:52
The SNP has welcomed the latest expert evidence making clear the benefits of a currency union after a Yes vote – and highlighting the transparent political agenda of the No campaign on the issue.

The Scottish Parliament’s Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee today heard from the former Chief Economic Adviser to Standard Life, Professor David Simpson, who praised the proposals put forward by the Fiscal Commission as being beneficial to business in Scotland and the rest of the UK – and described the posturing of the Westminster establishment on the issue as “very obviously” being part of a political agenda.

The UK Government’s political agenda was also highlighted by Crawford Beveridge, Chair of the Fiscal Commission Working Group, who pointed out that the Treasury has refused to even discuss the currency union, and confirmed his belief that “economics will trump the politics” after a Yes vote.

Commenting, Highlands and Islands MSP Mike MacKenzie said:

“Today’s evidence confirms what we already knew – that a currency union is in the best interests of people and businesses both north and south of the border. It has also lifted the lid on how economic experts view the Westminster establishment’s bluffing on the pound.

“Businesses and economists can see through the so-called Dambuster’s Strategy employed by Project Fear – designed to sow uncertainty and bully people in Scotland into voting No.

“As Crawford Beveridge made clear, after a Yes vote the bluff and bluster will be put to one side and the Scottish and UK Governments will negotiate a currency union in the mutual interests of both countries – ensuring certainty for business and in the best interests of the people.”

Greengardenpixie Fri 12-Sep-14 16:08:13

In short, no, i dont accept it.

OOAOML Fri 12-Sep-14 16:34:27

Whereas today we have threats to nationalise BP and a 'day of reckoning' for business that have spoken out. What's your take on that?

dalziel1 Fri 12-Sep-14 17:30:15

Basic history cum economics lesson:-

Currency union with full political union = good idea.

Currency union by itself = very bad idea. (e.g. Euro).

Who cares what a SNP think tank says about how its a good idea. Its just not ever a good idea without political union and has never worked in all of history.

Greengardenpixie Fri 12-Sep-14 19:27:42

Aren't we all so full of ourselves - given this discussion is more about choosing to be selective about not only what we hear and read, its also about one simple argument

If Scotland is so poor and worthless why is it that Westminster is so desperate to hold onto it at any cost?

StatisticallyChallenged Fri 12-Sep-14 19:28:41

No, that's the argument it's about for you. It's not for me.

Greengardenpixie Fri 12-Sep-14 19:37:57

Statistically

when Westminster are prepared to breach their own rules in front of a global audience and witnessed for all the world to see - you need to remove the blinkers before all you value is taken from you Nick Robinson is a national disgrace a liar and the puppet of Westminster. I'm all for contrary opinion but when that opinion is a blatant distortion of reality and the truth and those spouting it are to scared to accept it then you are all humped.

ChelsyHandy Fri 12-Sep-14 19:55:20

dalzeil I guess you are meaning the example of when the larger Czech Republic and the smaller Slovakia split and their currency union without political union lasted 38 days?

Greengardenpixie Fri 12-Sep-14 19:55:25

For those that still have a mind of their own and want to at least source some conflicting opinion to that of the BBC and mainstream papers have a look at the following from inside the BBC

www.thedrum.com/news/2014/09/12/balance-failure-bbc-scottish-independence-referendum-coverage-wrong-and-not?desktop=1

did you see the BBC report this on national news

www.oilandgaspeople.com/news/1039/scottish-west-coast-untapped-oil-and-gas-reserves-worth-trillions/

so we are clear this is once again about oil

Falklands = oil
Iraq = oil
indy ref = oil

They cannot be trusted they are lying to you all

StatisticallyChallenged Fri 12-Sep-14 20:09:36

You have no idea what I value. I am not wearing blinkers, far from it. I have done an absolute mountain of research and analysis = and I rarely pay much attention to what the papers or news say. I don't give a damn about Nick Robinson. I have never mentioned Nick Robinson.

My decision is based on what I believe is the best outcome for Scotland. I do not believe that is independence.

StatisticallyChallenged Fri 12-Sep-14 20:10:53

Oh, the highly balanced Drum article which implies that BP said they're moving to London when that's not what their actual statement says...

Greengardenpixie Fri 12-Sep-14 20:12:13

don't become confused and assume I am someone who doesn't care about alternative views but you need to question authority (all authority - politcal, religious, educational, financial) and then make up your mind.

If you switch on to the mainstream media and lap it up you, then whether you like it or not you are supporting the stereotype "Eat Your Cereal" clone as portrayed by the Westminster boys club

StatisticallyChallenged Fri 12-Sep-14 20:15:45

No, I am not. Your comment and assumption is downright offensive.

Actually, your entire "I am so wise and everyone who doesn't agree is brainwashed" dialogue is utterly grim and exceptionally patronising. Infinitely worse, in fact, than BT woman.

Greengrow Fri 12-Sep-14 20:17:44

Why do the no campaigners all think money is the only issue people think matter? It really puzzles me. There are lots of reasons countries want to be independent. Whether that makes you richer or not does not have to be the main issue.

dalziel1 Fri 12-Sep-14 20:18:24

i was thinking to challenge the pro currency union posters to

name a single example when it has worked without political union? Any occasion in the last 200 years???

set up the scottish pound. it wont be easy but its the only way if you want independence.
(Good luck!)

StatisticallyChallenged Fri 12-Sep-14 20:21:11

There's a difference between making you richer, and making the country considerably worse off.

WildThong Fri 12-Sep-14 20:22:35

green you seem very angry about something. The Indy discussion threads are approaching 10000 posts and they have been full of information, links, arguments for and against, as well as a whole lot of shit too. the Drum
Statistically is one of the calmest, balanced and well read No voters on the threads, I really think you're trying to patronise someone who clearly knows a lot more than you do.
You referenced Crawford Beveridge in your post above, he is Salmonds chief advisor on the economy so he would say that

Greengardenpixie Fri 12-Sep-14 20:27:10

StatisticallyChallenged
"No, I am not. Your comment and assumption is downright offensive"

That is your opinion which of course you are entitled to, but mine differs from you.
I don't think that "I am so wise... yada yada yada" I am merely offering alternative opinion and I am most definitely not BT woman.

dementedma Fri 12-Sep-14 20:34:44

Spent last night talking to a very senior military Officer, 27 years service in the UK armed forces. English born, but living and working in Scotland. I asked him what would happen to him, his unit, his regiment if it was a yes vote. His response? "That has still to be negotiated" stunned me! I would have thought the issue of defence might have been discussed already! He did say, that should a foreign force "show an interest" in an independent Scotland, it was unlikely a UK force would be involved. It would be up to Scotland to deploy its own defences. Which it doesn't have.

AnnieHoo Fri 12-Sep-14 20:41:06

should a foreign force "show an interest" in an independent Scotland, it was unlikely a UK force would be involved. It would be up to Scotland to deploy its own defences

Exactly dementedma. These are issues that deserve a LOT more air time.

Greengardenpixie Fri 12-Sep-14 20:42:10

WildThong yes I am angry, but moreover I am disgusted at the so called democratic engagement that most certainly is not being portrayed by Westminster's puppets. Yes both sides will engage in political gamesmanship but ffs "tell the truth" so that the people who matter can make an informed decision whatever the result and it will be accepted. We teach our children to tell the truth and steer them on a path we wish for betterment of society, this campaign is the polar opposite of that premise. Lie, deceive, cover up and don't ever question authority. As for others knowing more than me I dare say some will and some won't that doesn't mean they are right. I will be voting yes because I have believed it is in Scotland's best interests to be elf governing for over 35 years, long before AS took over the reigns. If he is so wrong why has he managed to upset the whole of the UK with one simple question and why has his question gained massive support from all sections of society (not just in Scotland). If a No vote is registered we will be back here in a couple of years purely down to the fact that half of the voting public believe they are being lied to.

Greengrow Fri 12-Sep-14 20:44:42

I don't agree that being financially worse off is a problem. It does not correlate to happiness. Take a talk in the Highlands or go skiing near Aberdeen and you are going to generate happiness much more than a £5k rise in salary would.

prettybird Fri 12-Sep-14 20:47:54

Crawford Beveridge was VP Sun Micrysystems before becoming Chief Exec of Scottish Enterprise from 1991-99 (so under both Tory and Labour regimes) so he has a wealth of business experience - not just as an advisor to the ScotGov.

Does becoming an advisor to the SG immediately disqualify someone from having an opinion - or is it evidence of seeking expertise from the business sector? confused

EarthWindFire Fri 12-Sep-14 20:47:57

I don't agree that being financially worse off is a problem. It does not correlate to happiness. Take a talk in the Highlands or go skiing near Aberdeen and you are going to generate happiness much more than a £5k rise in salary would.

In the real world it isn't if you struggle every day to put food on your table or pay your rent/mortgage!

SantanaLopez Fri 12-Sep-14 20:48:15

How the fuck do you go walking in the Highlands or skiing in Aberdeen without money? You need money to pay for it!

And if we're talking about the country as a whole, being financially worse off is a major problem, because it leads to cuts. And the people who suffer most from government cuts are the ones at the bottom.

StatisticallyChallenged Fri 12-Sep-14 20:49:33

I'm not talking about the happiness generated from a 5K rise in salary. I'm talking about the sort of cuts we will have to make to meet the likely requirements of either sterlingization or a currency union, which seem to be Salmond's only plans. Those cuts will hit the poorest people the hardest. For most people, whilst having ever more money does not necessarily correlate to happiness a sudden reduction in finances will be correlated with a reduction in happiness.

There will always be exceptions. But if you are already just making things work then a cut will not make you happy just because you can do for a long walk.

Greengrow Fri 12-Sep-14 20:58:18

I don't think Scots need to worry. Scotland is full of well educated people. They will manage alone if they vote that way (although if I had to put money on it I think they'll vote No).

(A walk costs nothing. )

I just think the yes campaign have assumed the only relevant issue is money when for many Scots it is about getting back their own nation and having self determination and right to run their own small country like Switzerland or New Zealand.

EarthWindFire Fri 12-Sep-14 21:01:19

It sounds from the wording if your last post that you aren't based in Scotland (not that it matters)

EarthWindFire Fri 12-Sep-14 21:02:22

*of... Stupid auto correct! angry

Greengardenpixie Fri 12-Sep-14 21:04:43

I don't agree with some of the views on here or in the media but I have to say engagement in the process is astonishing,

Without anyone jumping in with what the Polls say, I have still to hear the views of those who can explain why in their opinion, if the arguments of the YES campaign are so wrong, is the YES vote gaining ground across all sectors of society.

SantanaLopez Fri 12-Sep-14 21:09:10

Well, there's a walk in the Highlands and there's a walk through the Glasgow schemes, isn't there?

I just think the yes campaign have assumed the only relevant issue is money when for many Scots it is about getting back their own nation and having self determination and right to run their own small country like Switzerland or New Zealand.

I assume that's a typo and you mean the no campaign.... Anyway. We can't run our own small country like Switzerland or New Zealand because of money. The foundations aren't there. We'd be ranked alongside Estonia and Botswana.

Credit Suisse's report this week was grim. They believed that Scotland would fall into a deep recession. We believe deposit flight is both highly likely and highly problematic (with banks assets of 12x GDP) and should the BoE move to guarantee Scottish deposits, we expect it to extract a high fiscal and regulatory price (probably insisting on a primary budget surplus). The re-domiciling of the financial sector and UK public service jobs, as well as a legal dispute over North Sea oil, would further accelerate any downturn. In our opinion, as North Sea oil production slows, we estimate that the non-oil economy would need a 10% to 20% devaluation to restore competitiveness. This would require a 5% to 10% fall in wages, driven by a steep rise in unemployment.

SantanaLopez Fri 12-Sep-14 21:11:00

I have still to hear the views of those who can explain why in their opinion, if the arguments of the YES campaign are so wrong, is the YES vote gaining ground across all sectors of society.

Because they're promising people everything. It sounds wonderful. They're using highly emotive language to discredit anyone who disagrees and pulling out scare tactics to intimidate anyone wavering (the NHS, we'll be punished for daring to do this etc).

AnnieHoo Fri 12-Sep-14 21:16:10

Ok greengardenpixie, let's be positive here. Say we do get independence, something that you have obviously been campaigning for all your life, what will you do differently? how will you contribute to the economy?

SuperLoudPoppingAction Fri 12-Sep-14 21:19:31

Is there skiing in Aberdeen? ::googles::

dalziel1 Fri 12-Sep-14 21:22:25

dry ski slope in garthdee near asda.

Greengardenpixie Fri 12-Sep-14 21:26:35

Well that's me convinced !!!

Seriously, is that it. The whole no campaign summed up as its all make believe and fairy tales. If thats the case why do Westminster want to hold onto Scotland?

SantanaLopez Fri 12-Sep-14 21:28:35

Because Scotland brings a lot to the union, and it would be a big loss. Both Scotland and the rUK would be affected.

ChelsyHandy Fri 12-Sep-14 21:30:37

prettybird Crawford Beveridge was VP Sun Micrysystems before becoming Chief Exec of Scottish Enterprise from 1991-99 (so under both Tory and Labour regimes) so he has a wealth of business experience - not just as an advisor to the ScotGov.

Does that mean he was responsible for all the incentives paid to foreign electronics companies to set up in "Silicon Glen", which mostly then went bust after a decade or so. And Sun Microsystems laid off thousands. I know someone who was made redundant by them.

Does becoming an advisor to the SG immediately disqualify someone from having an opinion - or is it evidence of seeking expertise from the business sector?

Not at all - I am all for judging government investors on their qualifications, experience and successes.

dalziel1 Fri 12-Sep-14 21:34:42

why? its about timing. The uk is just coming out of years of recession. Finally we can hope for some much needed growth although we still have a mountain of debt to deal with.
If scotland splits away then the whole of the uk will be tainted with the risk. international investors will not want to invest here, buy our bonds or hold our currency until its clear whats going to happen to us (rUk, that is).

both scotland and rUK needs this period of growth but neither will get it if there is a yes next week.

ChelsyHandy Fri 12-Sep-14 21:40:04

Santana *How the fuck do you go walking in the Highlands or skiing in Aberdeen without money? You need money to pay for it!

Well, obviously Brigadoon, where you're meant to live, is near the glens and all. Bit of a shame if you actually live in Scotstoun or Blackridge or similar, but I guess you would get very fit with the long distance trekking!

How that translates to a multi billion pound tourist industry, I don't know. Maybe free b&bs and public transport or something?

Dalzeil I agree people in this country seem to forget we're just climbing out of an international recession. DH had a telephone interview yesterday with a foreign company, as he will probably lose his job if there is a Yes vote, and the interviewer was telling him all about the cuts that (European) country will still soaking up, but they all hoped it would leave them in a healthier state economy wise eventually.

Greengardenpixie Fri 12-Sep-14 21:50:00

Anniehoo

This is not an argument about what I will contribute in an independent Scotland but rather, what negative impact will the UK government's monetary policy have on the values the people of Scotland have indicated are important to them in the last election 2011 when against all odds and against the best efforts of the UK government to ensure no single party could win an outright majority values such as such as no privatization of NHS in Scotland.

You may be assuming that I am fit, able bodied, white working class, employed, homeowner etc etc, you may assume I am of a certain age, you only know that I am at least 35 years old, however that could be a lie designed to mislead you or I could be 75 years old. The significance of this is I can tell you anything I like and you have no way to verify its accuracy.
When it is a proven fact that the Westminster parties deliberately conceal vital information I have to question why. Why do they not want me knowing that. Why was the McCrone report considered "incendiary" and secreted away.

dalziel1 Fri 12-Sep-14 21:53:08

Greengardenpixie -seriously, are you ok?

Greengardenpixie Fri 12-Sep-14 22:01:26

Yes im fine thanks dalziel1 smile

Greengardenpixie Fri 12-Sep-14 22:09:01

SantanaLopezyes it does yet if you believed the Westminster spin, were all subsidy junkies when in the opposite is the reality. I don't even mind paying more and spreading it around but even that is not happening, UK Gov are taking our money (yours and mine) and spending it on things I am fundamentally opposed to. I don't want that, I want my taxes to work for the betterment of humanity.

Greengrow Fri 12-Sep-14 22:09:11

(Yes,sorry I meant the other way round - yes and no.
I've worked in Aberdeen a good few times. I thought the people I met there were incredibly happy and very sporty - doing all kinds of active things which was partly because of the opportunities there.

Yes, I am not in Scotland and from just over Hadrian's Wall but I think it will be fine for the Scots if they vote yes (although I expect it will be no).

What I don't want is continuing unfairness in a united country - I want the same prescriptions charges across all 4 countries. I want no or the same university fees across all the countries. We need to stamp out the unfairness to England whether the vote is yes or no.

I suppose if it's a yes then my children will be able to go to universities in Scotland free as if they were French children. So that might save me £54k for a start.

SantanaLopez Fri 12-Sep-14 22:19:09

the values the people of Scotland have indicated are important to them in the last election 2011

Turnout: 50%

values such as such as no privatization of NHS in Scotland.

No privatisation of the NHS in Scotland? It's happening under your nose. The SNP have given Weight Watchers a big Glasgow-NHS contract. In 2011-12, they spent £68.7 million on private contracts. This rose to £83.4 million the next year!

were all subsidy junkies when in the opposite is the reality.

Scotland receives more than it pays in. Quite simply.

I think you've had a bit too much to drink though.

rino Fri 12-Sep-14 22:23:39

I cannot understand how Scotland will be better off independent. There is far too much doubt, uncertainty and unanswered questions. We are expected to make a leap into the complete unknown and once all the bridges have been burnt will we find out if it's achievable . Defence is a massive area which is so overlooked until it is too late. MI5, MI6 will treat us like a foreign country and any one who thinks that is not a problem is sadly too trusting.
Education is completely devolved already, but 12,000 children don't have a nursery place, college place nd apprenticeships for children who can't make it to university have been cut. If you're a deaf child in Scotland you will already have far less spent on you than anywhere else in the UK. But if you are the child of a multi millionaire you will still have your university fees paid for.

We give less blood per head of population, transplants are a problem. 60 percent of consultants in the NHS have said independence will be bad for patients. Free prescriptions to the multi millionaires, but still Glasgow is the heart attack capital of the UK. How is this fair. These are all areas the SNP have control over, but have done nothing about it.

We won't get the pound, not because Westminster says NO but because the people will say no to us. The English used to like us but there has been so much venom sent south why does anyone think they will give everything we ask for. It will be a messy divorce . If we get a yes vote I hope those who vote yes will still be wearing their badges in 5/ 10 years time so they can explain why we are in such a mess

EarthWindFire Fri 12-Sep-14 22:28:51

I want my taxes to work for the betterment of humanity.

I don't think you'll ever get that.

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