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Live webchat with Amnesty International Tuesday 4th Feb, 11-12pm

(617 Posts)

MNHQ have commented on this thread.

KatieMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 03-Feb-14 11:27:58

Following the leaking of an Amnesty International policy document 'Decriminalisation of Sex Work: Policy Background', which argues that men who buy sex are ‘exercising their autonomy’ and should be allowed to do so ‘free from government interference’ there has been considerable discussion on the site and requests for a webchat.

Today, Kate Allen, Director of Amnesty International UK will be here between 11-12pm to answer your questions.

Please do join us live on Tuesday or ask your question on this thread in advance. Just a quick reminder that it’s one question per person; take a look at our webchat guidelines, here.



Beachcomber Fri 07-Feb-14 10:06:55

Agree very heartening to hear this man speak the way he does. No system is going to be perfect and things take time.

Also think of all those women who will now be contributing to the country and the economy by doing something other than servicing men's sexual demands. Think of the potential that will not be wasted anymore.

The thing about DNA was very interesting.

BriarRainbowshimmer Fri 07-Feb-14 09:46:46

He also says that when they find new women they will be offered help and a place in a shelter on the spot, and if they don’t want to they’re given info where they can get help and discuss things. They also have a socialworker with them. The men are also offered help (to change their behaviour)
They have also found the rapists from cases when the perpetrator was unknown by taking DNA samples from punters.

I’m sure it’s not perfect but it was heartening to hear him speak.

CaptChaos Fri 07-Feb-14 09:26:32

Sabrina If that's what a Swedish police officer is stating is at the heart of their model of policing and central to their sex laws, then how can any reasonable person disagree? It might not be perfect in its execution but the ethos of protecting the most vulnerable from the most heinous can only be viewed as positive.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 07-Feb-14 00:09:04

Briar - thanks so much for posting that Simon Haggstrom video.

To quote from it:

"The Swedish model is about gender equality."

"In a modern society women and children shouldn't be bought and sold."

"It is not acceptable that a man on his way home from work is paying €150 to do whatever he pleases to a woman."

"In Sweden we have a very strong pro-prostitution lobby, who claim they are selling sex of their free will, because it's part of their sexuality, and because they see it as a normal job. It is important for you to understand that the sex purchase law wasn't meant for them - it was to work as a war against organised crime and human traffickers, to prevent them from establishing themselves in Sweden. The problem in this debate is that we have the very few individuals of the pro-lobby who have a very strong voice in the public debate. The majority of women I meet who come from Nigeria, Romania, Bulgaria and so on, don't have a voice. They are not sitting in the TV studios, being interviewed by Newspapers. That's why we, as the Swedish police, we try to be a voice of the voiceless. The sex laws are meant for them - to protect the majority, who every day are being hurt and abused."

Put that on your bingo card, rhino.

WhentheRed Thu 06-Feb-14 23:57:18

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FloraFox Thu 06-Feb-14 23:55:47

rhino if this is boring you, don't let the door hit your arse on the way out.

rhinoceer Thu 06-Feb-14 23:55:35

"Joan Smith jumps in a squad car with local police to find out how it works"

I remember this article. So basically she "finds out how it works" by taking a drive through town?

One problem- that doesn't tell you squat about the indoor industry.

rhinoceer Thu 06-Feb-14 23:49:16

I wonder what could be on the bingo card for the abolitionists?

-The "75% start as children" stat which has been debunked over and over

-Links to articles that have "vice" in the title and a stock photo of a stereotypical portrayal of a prostitute standing on a street posed by a model.

-Calling anyone and everyone with a different viewpoint a "pimp"

-Use of highly emotive language to try and shock people without giving any actual evidence

-Dismissing any sex worker who speaks out against the "Nordic model" as being a minority who isn't representative.

-"The happy hooker is a myth"

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 06-Feb-14 23:47:17

And about eleventy billion posters have addressed your lies point upthread, rhino.

Why don't you read back.

rhinoceer Thu 06-Feb-14 23:43:13

"lies about Melissa Farley (with a bonus point for the lie about rape jokes on her website)"

What lies? A Canadian court really did dismiss her research as "problematic" and her use of language as "inflammatory" no lie about that. And up until sometime last year she really did have a list of disturbing questionable rape-related content on her website for whatever purpose it was supposed to serve.

street prostitutes are not representative.

Are you referring to that "75% start as children" stat? Way to go and twist what I said. I didn't say street prostitutes weren't representative I said that "statistic" wasn't representative. Go and re-read what I posted.

Beachcomber Thu 06-Feb-14 23:33:51

This is interesting.

The law has brought about other changes as well. Before 1999, most women in street prostitution in Stockholm were Swedish. Now they’re from the Baltic states or Africa, and have sold sex in other countries as well. They tell Haggstrom’s officers they’re much more likely to be subjected to violence in countries where prostitution has been legalised. “Swedish men want oral sex and intercourse, nothing more than that,” the undercover cop tells me. “They know they have to behave or they may be arrested. They don’t want to use violence.”

WhentheRed Thu 06-Feb-14 23:15:26

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

horsetowater Thu 06-Feb-14 22:56:14

We can purge MN of single issue MRAs but sadly they've got hold of the liberal human rights movements and are using them to maintain the oppression of women.


Guess it's petition time again

horsetowater Thu 06-Feb-14 22:53:19

Migsy I've been asking Rhinoceer whether he's a man and what his interest in this issue is for several days now but not had an answer. I'm not sure what he's got to hide but I don't want to give him any more attention than he's already had.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 06-Feb-14 22:48:21

The last one was banned. I think HQ get sick of the 'single-issue-agenda' guys joining up just to talk shit like this.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Thu 06-Feb-14 22:47:33

Gotta say, "Rape Crisis staff are rolling in money because they have sold their principles to a donor" was a new one on the bingo list, though.

FloraFox Thu 06-Feb-14 22:41:46

migsy we get these types on MN every so often. They are always men and although they sometimes claim not to be punters or evade the question, they are always incredibly invested in reading pimp lobby "research" which is usually a ham-fisted attempt to denigrate other people's research. They generally haven't actually read any source material but just repeat the summaries they get from websites, which are almost always incorrect if you actually read the research in question. They are usually highly entitled in the way the expect MNers to do their research for them or answer their questions even when they are pointed to threads where it is already discussed. There could be a bingo card for them. It would have:

- lies about what Rhoda Grant said at a meeting in Scotland
- lies about Melissa Farley (with a bonus point for the lie about rape jokes on her website)
- repeating something said by the Blessed Brooke (Magnanti) - whom they always call Dr Magnanti
- Petite Jasmine
- the Swedish model doesn't work (repeat until blue in face)
- NZ and Australia are perfect (repeat until red in face)
- misunderstanding the nature of socio-political research
- drawing ludicrous conclusions from research papers
- lots of talk about women's choices, no talk of men's choices
- "you're just a prude who doesn't like sex"
- disabled men need prostitutes

We're almost there with rhino but I don't think he's mentioned Blessed Brooke yet.

Sometimes they get bored and go away quickly but others keep cropping up like a bad rash.

Beachcomber Thu 06-Feb-14 22:37:28

Good luck with getting your questions answered migsy. He was asked a simple straightforward (non personal) question about a dozen times on another thread; he never answered.

Beachcomber Thu 06-Feb-14 22:34:58

BriarRainbowshimmer, thanks, that's a great link, the police officer is very clear.

migsy86 Thu 06-Feb-14 22:27:33

Is rhinoceer a man? Do you see prostitiutes?

WhentheRed Thu 06-Feb-14 22:24:23

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AnyaKnowIt Thu 06-Feb-14 22:15:28

rhinoceer Thu 06-Feb-14 22:05:29
"Women in prostitution can be evicted in any country."

In the UK where the Nordic model is not implemented it is not illegal for a home to be used to sell sexual services (if it is only being used by one sex worker).

My landlord can evict me for running any kind of business. Its in my tenancy agreement.

rhinoceer Thu 06-Feb-14 22:14:51

"horrific domestic violence against a woman "

And that woman was a sex worker in Sweden.

FloraFox Thu 06-Feb-14 22:13:16

Two women each week are killed by their abusive partners in the UK. Petite Jasmine is the only woman in prostitution killed in the past 10 years in Sweden and she was killed by her ex-partner, not by a punter or a pimp, who are the largest source of danger to women in prostitution.

Homosexuality is not prostitution.

Many landlords would evict a woman in prostitution even though it is not illegal for a home to be used for prostitution.

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