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Do Black boys need separate or specialist education?

(53 Posts)
crouchingtigeress Mon 07-Mar-05 23:58:57

Just seen newsnight with Bill Morris, Chris Woodhead and Tony Sewell (education specialist).

Both BM and CW thought that class was more an issue than race.

TS disagreed and argued that they're are middle class African-caribbean boys failing.

Any thoughts?

DelGirl Tue 08-Mar-05 00:03:30

I think it would definately not be a good move to segregate, it could set off another generation of racist attitudes imho. Not sure what the solution is though

mammya Tue 08-Mar-05 00:05:03

It's a very interesting topic, although I don't know enough about it to make a judgement, sometimes I think, yes, sometimes no. How's that for a well argued post!

MunchedTooManyMarsLady Tue 08-Mar-05 00:06:03

This is one of the things that I have been trying to get my head around for years. I have fought to ensure that my son does not go the way of many black boys. I don't, however, agree with Trevor Phillips about segregating black boys. I truly think that it would be detrimental to all. I get so angry that they fail and are being failed. I remember at school being told that university was not for me. I have had conversations recently with people who have told me that me and my kind are not normal (almost slapped the woman who said that about my kids but realised that that would pander to her stereotypes). There's a good program on BBC2 at the moment about Black Intellectuals, so my mind isn't completely on this. There's a definite lack of education about black history (except in October) and I can't help but thinking that the lack of black role models in education, history etc doesn't help. I really don't think that separate is the answer. We have so much to learn from each other. We need to see black people as more than singers, rappers, sports stars etc. We need to recognise Black Intellectuals etc. Sorry, rambling now.

sallystrawberry Tue 08-Mar-05 00:06:04

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mammya Tue 08-Mar-05 00:06:34

Although I have to admit to being worried about the segregation aspect.

mammya Tue 08-Mar-05 00:07:56

Marslady about you being told you're not normal! Do people really think like that? and admit it? that makes me so

Gwenick Tue 08-Mar-05 00:09:55

DH gets rather wound up by this subject. He's noticed, since living in the UK, that in a lot of poorer black areas many seem to 'resign' themselves to the fact that they'll fail at school, end up in crime and unemployed etc etc - and there seems to be no real desire from the older people in the communities to stop this occuring.

He reckons that a lot (not all) spend too much time listening to the black 'stereotypes' played off on the media and believing that they're being discriminated against instead of working to improve themselves.

MunchedTooManyMarsLady Tue 08-Mar-05 00:11:54

Yes, people do admit such things sadly.

Gwenick.. I understand exactly what your DH says and I agree.

sallystrawberry Tue 08-Mar-05 00:12:09

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

crouchingtigeress Tue 08-Mar-05 00:15:19

I agree with TP that something needs to be done, and that there is a 'it's not cool to study culture'- I see this as a working class issue. I really don't see how putting all black boys in to one class is the answer.

This makes me sad, confused and angry, I do not want my ds to become a statistic.

I feel the current govt is trying with learning mentors, vocational courses, extra funding for poor performing schools.

i also think the black community has always tryed to combat failure with saturday schools etc.

So I think the change must come from the individual, a change in attitude. However this could come about from:
More role models (students who have come out the other end)
And most importantly strong parent support.

sallystrawberry Tue 08-Mar-05 00:15:33

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sallystrawberry Tue 08-Mar-05 00:16:37

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Gwenick Tue 08-Mar-05 00:19:14

MTMML - it's sad isn't it

MunchedTooManyMarsLady Tue 08-Mar-05 00:21:02

I have to say that the vocational course worry me in respect of black students. My worry is that black boys may be pushed towards these rather than being encouraged to use the academic skills that may be hidden because it's not cool to be clever. A woman I know with a son the same age as DS1 said of the school that both of our sons were trying to get into "why don't ordinary hardworking boys get in?" By ordinary she meant white. DS1 got into the school which is about 70% asian. It's a selective school and so I would guess that all of the boys are ordinary hardworking boys. But if a woman of her intelligence can say such things then it doesn't bode well for black boys.

MunchedTooManyMarsLady Tue 08-Mar-05 00:22:12

I'm sure that your son will do well Sally, especially with you supporting him.

crouchingtigeress Tue 08-Mar-05 00:22:13

Yes, SS, I am going through that already with just considering primary schools and have thought about the idea of private.

Fortunately the divide between top and bottom in Finchley isn't so bad. So I'll opt for more multicultural with slightly worse results due to more non-english speaking children- and hope that my home support will conpensate.

sallystrawberry Tue 08-Mar-05 00:23:00

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sallystrawberry Tue 08-Mar-05 00:26:12

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

crouchingtigeress Tue 08-Mar-05 00:26:40

MtMML your right that may well happen. But I know too many black boys who would never consider HE because they saw it as an academic route to far removed from themselves.

Vocational doesn't have to always equate with mannual, for the easier option. There is now a vocational route to practising medicine.

But there will always be a acad. v voc. debate?

crouchingtigeress Tue 08-Mar-05 00:29:35

Sally s you're so right.
i use to work in educ.policy, each year there would be a big whohaa about boys failing, which generated much research projects.

I suppose they think girls can always resort to the traditional role of homemaker.

damn cheek, if you ask me

MunchedTooManyMarsLady Tue 08-Mar-05 00:31:59

sally, the times they are a-changing. DS1 is in a selective school (old grammar). Just make sure that you keep on top of his studies and don't let bling culture impinge on it.

ct, I try not to get involved in the vocational/academic debate for that very reason. I just can't quite shake the fear that vocational for black boys will somehow not be much cop. Now there's something I would like to be wrong about!

sallystrawberry Tue 08-Mar-05 00:38:26

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MunchedTooManyMarsLady Tue 08-Mar-05 00:40:56

see. your son will do well because he has you!

sallystrawberry Tue 08-Mar-05 00:59:00

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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