Oh boy, here we go again :(

[wouldlovetoknowwhy]

I've just found out that I've had yet another mmc. It is my fourth consecutive mc in just over 12mths.

The baby from my second mmc died at 10+5 and the baby from this latest mmc died at 10+4.

My dh and I had lots of tests done this summer but everything came back normal...however I can't help but wonder if there is an underlying problem which has caused two pgs to fail at very similar gestations?? Has anybody else had a similar experience? Did you ever get any satisfactory answers?

There seems to be so few answers with mc. I asked whether any tests could be done on this baby (post ERPC) but the SHO didn't know. I asked her why it's happened again and she suggested it was 'bad luck'.

If anybody has any stories that are similar to mine, then I'd love to hear them.

[gnatbite]

I am so sorry to hear your news, I don't have a similar story but just wanted you to know how sorry I am that you have lost another precious baby. I hope someone who can be more help comes along soon, but wanted you to know I'm thinking of you.

[PacificWerewolfwoohood]

So sorry for your current loss .

Around 10 weeks is when placenta takes over from yolk sac to nourish baby, which is why 8-10 weeks is often a time when things go wrong.
If you've had lots of tests done and they were all normal that is obviously good news and all your losses could boil down to "bad luck". Tissue from ERPC can be sent for histology and genetic analysis; tests after MMC don't always work if the tissue is already too degraded, depending how long ago the pregnancy stopped . I am sorry to be graphic, don't mean to upset you more.
Does your hospital have a "Recurring Miscarriage Clinic" or something similar?
I had 3 MMCs, all before 10 weeks, and found the clinic very very helpful and supportive.
Sometimes after recurring MCs it is recommended you try taking BabyAspirin whenever you next try to conceive, even if there was nothing wrong with your blood tests. Worthwhile discussing with your consultant.
FWIW, I went on to have 2 successful pregnancies, 1 further MMC, another son, and am currently expecting DS4, so it would be fair to say I feel very very blessed and lucky indeed.

Hope you recover from this one physcially and emotionally well. My thoughts are with you and your DH. Look after yourself.

[wouldlovetoknowwhy]

Thank you gnatbite and pacific for your posts and kind thoughts.

pacific, I was wondering about the placenta and whether that could be the smoking gun. I guess it is a hard one to test for. I started taking BA after getting my last BFP, as recommended by the consultant but obviously, it didn't make any difference in my case. Don't think there is a Miscarriage Clinic at my local hospital. I will ask the surgeon about genetic analysis because I am very keen to get any answers.

I feel kind of OK, bit numb but resigned tbh. I'm a fairly pragmatic person....but I still feel empty.

[lulu78]

Hi woullovetoknowwhy - Sorry to hear of your losses, I have had similar expierence to yours but just had my 3 mmc so I have been referred to recurrent m/c clinic for some tests. The epu said they would not refer me and my m/c's was just down to bad luck and they were sure my tests would come back negative but I went to my doctor who was lovely and she refered me. Don't really have some helpful words as I am just starting the process of tests but wanted you know your not alone in this horrible sad time.

Pacific - I was wondering with your 3 mmc did you have tests for these? and did your tests come back negative? Did your consultant advise you to take the baby asprin even tho your tests was ok? Do you think this is why you went on to have a healty pregnancy? Sorry for all the questions I am so desperate to have a healty pregnancy and want to try again but I am so scared of a 4th m/c.

[kissmummy]

hi wouldlovetoknow and lulu. I've had four miscarriages, in the last 16 months.
All my pregnancies have failed around the seven-eight week mark. Two of them were missed miscarriages, and two were "spontaneous", ie i started bleeding and that's how i knew it had gone wrong.
After the 3rd miscarriage i got a referral to an NHS specialist and i had various blood tests, all of which came back clear. they also did a basic chromasome test on my husband but that was clear too.
For my fourth pregnancy i was advised to take baby aspirin and progesterone, and the pregnancy got a tiny bit further than the other three - we saw a heartbeat at around seven weeks - but ultimately it didn't make any difference. I am still waiting for the bleeding to start though the embryo died three weeks ago.
I saw the GP on Monday who was still telling me it could be "just bad luck." I no longer believe this at all. the statistical chances of it being "just bad luck" to have four miscarriages in a row are less than 1/3000!
Now we are going private as the NHS doesn't seem to be able to do any more. There are various more sophisticated tests that you can have done privately. i've no idea whether it will lead us anywhere but i'm not getting pregnant again without any hope of the outcome being different next time. i just can't put myself through it again. At least that's how i feel right now, but it's still all quite raw. i'm lucky enough to have a two year old son, who arrived without any problems or previous miscarriages. i just hope that someone can get to the bottom of my problem, and i wish the same for everyone else on this board who has unexplained recurrent miscarriage. it truly is a hellish thing to go through.

[wouldlovetoknowwhy]

Thank you for your posts lulu and kissmummy and sorry for all your losses, it's so so sad.

lulu - all the very best of luck with the testing and hope very much that you get some answers, a way forward and a baby at the end of it.

kissmummy - so sorry for your four losses but it's interesting that yours all failed around the same kind of gestation. It does make you wonder whether the underlying cause is the same doesn't it (other than 'bad luck', which is something we have all been told!). Our stories are quite similar although the ending of our 4th mc is going to be different...I have an ERPC booked for tomorrow but I admire you for waiting to mc naturally. My first mmc started naturally (the pg had failed between 4-6 weeks before the bleeding started but I didn't know that until the day the bleeding actually started). I don't know whether the length of time between the pg failing was the reason for my excessive blood loss (which ended in an emergency EPRC) but it put me off ever having another natural mc - EPRCs all the way for me, even though the thought of another operation makes me feel terribly nervous.

All the very best with going private, it would be great if you could come back to this thread in the future and let us know what they find/how you get on.

[PacificWerewolfwoohood]

Hi, I am just back to this thread. It is such a shame to hear more sad stories .

The miscarriage association has lots of useful information. The leaflet I linked to explains a bit more about specific tests. My DH and I both had blood taken: me for general MOT including thyroid function tests and hormones and both of us for karyotyping (analysis of both our chromosomes). His were normal, mine showed a balanced translocation 13/14. As I said about the 3 MMCs were I had an ERPOC and tissue was sent for analysis showed other Trisomies that had nothing to do with my problem.
I took babyaspirin in my 4th pregnancy which ultimately led to DS1 after discussion with the consultant although there was nothing in my blood tests to suggest I have a problem with blood clotting/platelets. Next pregnancy I took nothing (not even folic acid) as it took to 16 weeks before I realised I was expecting (long story, don't ask ). DS3 was produced without Aspirin as well, so on balance I do not think that Aspirin actually had anything to do with my "successes".

There are all sorts of tests offered in the private sector for infertility and recurrent miscarriage. My own impression is that a lot of these have a poor evidence base and that at times unscrupoulous "specialists" will prey on vulnerable desperate people with unrealistic promises for loada money . So do your homework!

HTH a bit.

[wouldlovetoknowwhy]

pacific, thanks for coming back. It's interesting that your mmcs were tested (think you must have a good hospital, mine doens't seem to do anything with the 'product' apart from check for signs of molar pg)...are you saying that your three pg all failed due to trisomies? I do wonder whether my four failed due to chromosomal problems (in which case I guess you could call it 'bad luck').

My dh and I had very similar tests done to those that you describe (karyotyping, thrombophilia, antiphospholipid are the ones I remember) but nothing was found to be amiss. I won't be pursuing any more testing - at this moment, I just can't face the thought of ttc again, but I can imagine that it's all too easy to be lulled into spending lots of money on it.

[PacificWerewolfwoohood]

Hi, love (oh, I love saying that "hi, love", such a Scottish thing ), yes, I had various trimosies: 16, 18 and an unbalanced translocation (google it if you want), all of which led to MMC. I am kind of glad never to have been forced to make a decision whether to continue these pregnancies or terminate as nature had made the decision for me, IYKWIM?
And all the tests you mention we had done too. I am sure most hospitals follow similar protocols. My hospital was a tertiary referral centre, they are now closing/relocating and I have therefore booked with our local District General Hospital which is all shiney and new, so here's hoping to good care!

After I had had DS1 we decided to "let nature take it's course" rather than TTC and I conceived 1 week after I had stopped BFing when DS1 was 5 months old ! Result: DS2 .

I think a lot of people feel better if they use contraception until they feel less fragile before they go for it again. I do not thing there is any Right or Wrong, you're ready to try again, when you are ready!

[wouldlovetoknowwhy]

Lovely stories about having your dc!

Do you think you would've blamed trisomies as the cause of your three mmcs had you not had conclusive testing done on the remains? (hope that word doesn't offend, not sure how else to put it). I think it's better in some ways to know for sure than to be left speculating...out of interest, did the medics tell you that the trisomies were independent flukes that wouldn't affect the chances of any future pgs? Hope you don't mind all the ????? !

[PacificWerewolfwoohood]

No, don't mind at all.

Yes, I felt better having been given definite reasons for MCs. If I hadn't been told I think I would have always felt guilty about having started a family latish in life - I was 33 at my first MC.
And, yes, I was told, none of these had any bearing on the chances of future pregnancies. So we kind of kept going TTC.
BTW, after my 2nd MC I did have to request further investigation to be done at that point rather that wait for 3rd pregnancy to go wrong. I think they agreed because of my age.

[wouldlovetoknowwhy]

Thanks for answering, as you can see, I'm quite interested! I just wonder how it made you feel to have lightening strike three times, even though each of your trisomies/mcs was deemed to be a unique event (that would not impact any future pgs). Do you think (with hindsight) that it really was just random bad luck that this happened three times or do you think that that something more was going on? Hypothetical I know but just curious as to your thoughts.

At 33/4, I don't think you are old to ttc, far from it!

[wouldlovetoknowwhy]

correction....don't think you were too old to ttc!

[PacificWerewolfwoohood]

Ha, I am done with TTC! Thank goodness for that: I am currently over 20 weeks pregnant with what will hopefully be DS4 , so I am soooo done after that.

To answer your question: I am not sure what to think, really. My mother had 2 pregnancies, 2 healthy children, but as it turns out has the same genetic problem as me, or rather I got it from her, of course. But she had no problems with MCs.
I also had another MMC between DS2 and 3 which was the one with the translocation which in theory could have survived.

Ultimately, I think there are a lot of things you just cannot get certain answers to. Statistics are one thing, but they do not say anything about your chances as an individual. I count myself lucky that physically speaking my MCs were easy to recover from, I do not tend to dwell on things too much and was able to look forward rather than back. And the ultimate huge luck was of course to have had my boys . It would have been easier to get over a MC if I had already had a child and had proven I "could do it".

Right, I am off to bed, feel free to keep asking/chatting; I will be back tomorrow. Need my sanity beauty sleep.

[wouldlovetoknowwhy]

Thank you for answering and for your thoughts. I agree, it's hard to get firm answers, I know that but I'm still curious to hear about others' experiences!

Well, I'm logging off too cos I've got to be up by 6am in the morning because the hospital want me in by 7am . This time tomorrow, I hope to be back home and recovering.

Night night!

[PacificWerewolfwoohood]

Good luck tomorrow, best wishes. Let me know how you got on.

[kissmummy]

hi wouldlovetoknow how did it go?
i went for acupuncture yesterday to try and bring on my bleeding and was given some very expensive and absolutely vile herbs to take every day for the next five days. they took two hours to prepare and absolutely stank the house out. i was already feeling queasy last night and was sure i'd be sick if i tried drinking it so was all psyched up to have it this morning. I took one swig and promptly vomited so that is the end of that idea.there's only so much tortureyou can put yourself through esp if you have no idea if it's going to work anyway!
i am pretty sure i'm going to end up with a D+C and am really fed up of waiting - sooner it's over the better now, i think.
we're seeing a specialist a week today - i'll post under a new thread about how it goes. good to share information...

[wouldlovetoknowwhy]

Hi pacific and kissummy,

Op went well and I'm now back home, which is great.

I had the op within 2.5hrs of arriving at the hospital so very efficient. I asked the consultant if the remains could be tested but he said pathology wouldn't do it cos they won't spend their money that way (especially as our tests all came back clear in the summer). I guess each health authority has their own priorities but I am at pacific's hospital being willing to carry out post-EPRC testing!

Anyway, of the three EPRCs, my recovery after the one today was the quickest. I was surprised myself. I lost about 700mls of blood but that didn't surprise me, given my previous experiences.

The consultant added that after 4 mcs, there's a 40% chance that I would mc again but 'more than 50% of having a successful pg'. So very high odds of bad news really. Still very unsure about what I'll do tbh, still a bit early to decide.

[wouldlovetoknowwhy]

kissmummy, sorry to hear about the vile herbs but I guess you feel as though you're doing something to help yourself. I hope things happen for you soon, regardless of what form it takes, you will be fine.

[kissmummy]

well done wouldlove - the worst (physical)bit is over now. like you i'm very very scared about getting pregnant again...it's hard to be optimistic given the odds. if you feel like emailing to share experiences and tips (i'm happy to update you on whatever tests the private specialist we're seeing recommends next week) my address is: [email protected]
do you have any children at all yet?

[wouldlovetoknowwhy]

Thanks for your offer of support, and yes, I'm interested in what the private sector offers you (not that I'll be pursuing that route personally) mainly because the consultant made it clear today that there is nothing else the hospital can offer me.

I am extremely fortunate in having two dc so perhaps that's why I am a little sanguine about things - then there is the question of my advanced age (40ish)

[kissmummy]

ah, okay. yes, you're lucky to have two DCs, but it's about what you expected isn't it? so if you expected or wanted a family of four, two doesn't feel enough . i suppose at least your age is some explanation in itself...though there is plenty hope and lots of people in their 40s have children these days. my mum was 44 when she had my little sister!
we're really lucky that we have some modest savings that we can spend on private specialists but i'm also aware we may end up spending thousands to no avail.... and my savings are finite - we have a certain amount and no hope of saving any more in future unless we sell the house. it's all crap!

[wouldlovetoknowwhy]

Yes, but you feel as though you are doing something constructive and that is the important thing. I am 41 so I guess there is time left theoretically (I don't seem to have a problem conceiving which can often be the case for older women) but I just don't know if it's worth the risk again when the odds are so high! I didn't really set out wanting 3dc, in fact I'd resolutely pulled up the having-any-more-kids drawbridge 2yrs ago...then friends came round with their 3mth old dd...I held her....(BIG mistake!!) and something was switched on again inside my mind and hey ho, we started ttc again the following summer (long story behind the delay!). Have you done any research yet on locating a suitable clinic?

[kissmummy]

We're going to the Lister Hospital...
there's a particular specialist there who has an interest in immunology and miscarriage. it's still quite a controversial area and rubbished by some specialists but we're going to look into it on advice from another expert. if that doesn't work i'll try the private practice of lesley regan and raj rai at St Mary's Paddington...

[wouldlovetoknowwhy]

Sounds like you've got a plan . When do you expect to start this particular journey, do you have any appts in the pipeline?