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Is there something on internet explaining, reasoning with a mean/thick deadbeat why he should, morally, pay maintenance?

(286 Posts)
LiffeyKidman Fri 16-Jan-09 10:50:38

Just wondering?

My x is maggoty rich and doesn't contribute. He genuinely believes that he has no moral obligation to give me money towards the children because I left him, and therefore 'implicity undertook to pay for their upbringing'.

I can't argue or reason with that level of idiocy and denial, and I don't try anymore.

I am just wondering if there is anything on the internet, aimed at deadbeat fathers, to make them understand and face up to the fact that they are in the wrong not to contribute,,,

just wondering, because although for now I'm not persuing x for money, I will next year. (long story, legal issue).

cestlavielife Fri 16-Jan-09 11:42:45

http://www.cmoptions.org/?gclid=CPHckYbwkJgCFR2zEAodSDXOnA

under child maintenance

As a parent, you have a responsibility to provide financially for your child even if you live apart from them and the other parent.

cestlavielife Fri 16-Jan-09 11:43:32

added http://www.cmoptions.org/en/maintenance/index.asp

AnarchyAunt Fri 16-Jan-09 11:47:06

Are you talking about something explaining the legalities of it, or something about his moral obligation?

The former is on CSA website, but the latter... I wish you luck. If you find anything I shall wave it at my ex too - four years on and the grand total of £25 collected by the CSA. He seems to think DD is not his responsibility - as he once pointed out I could have chosen to have an abortion hmm

I really don't know what goes on in the heads of these men.

LiffeyKidman Fri 16-Jan-09 14:21:49

What I am really looking for is something which appeals to a man who can afford it who is not contributing to start contributing. Something that is objective (ie, not me) which will reason it through....

LiffeyKidman Fri 16-Jan-09 14:23:00

explain to them WHY it is wrong NOT to contribute.

My x thinks if I took him to court I'd be stealing from him cos I'm a bitch after his money.

northwest1 Fri 16-Jan-09 23:14:03

You can try to reason him, but some men can't be reasoned with and I think you may be wasting a lot of mental energy which could be better spent elsewhere. Such as on taking him to court.

aseriouslyblondemoment Fri 16-Jan-09 23:45:52

I really don't want to appear flippant but when i saw this thread i couldn't help but think of SOLID to come on here and give those deadbeats a real good talking to
so please SOLID get on this thread too

SenoraPostrophe Fri 16-Jan-09 23:53:49

he's obviously still feeling bitter.

you could try writing to him, saying sorry you left, but explaining why, and pointing out that it's not fair to leave the children un-supported because of your relationship issues. or you could just call the csa...

aiden Sat 17-Jan-09 01:06:44

I am very interested in this. I currenlty work full time, knackered all the time, dd is 18mths, teething, sleep problems, etc etc. I would really like to reduce my working hrs, but not sure how we'd survive on less salary, (we're barely making ends meet now).

dds' father is a bit a prick who says he will, he will but has nver contributed anything for her financially in 18months, so any advise is appreciated.

N1 Sat 17-Jan-09 03:25:12

I am the type of person the top poster wants to get answers from.

Many people have tried to reason with me and I have not been "changed" yet.

My case in short. She and I got married (for the wrong reasons), then she got pregnant. The relationship didn't last, but I stayed because I didn't want to be seen to be breaking the commitment. She had an affair. Then the lies started and many attempts by her to get me intimidated away from the child....attempts failed. Court started. She generated more court proceedings while she was on legal aid and I was paying (and gathering more debt). More lies and many changes of mind by her. She got the CSA involved, I refused to pay, the CSA got a DEO, liability order, etc. I refused to pay. I would rather go to jail and get really angry sitting in jail than pay her and you can bet all the money you hope to have, that when I get out of jail, it's pay back time and the money snatching ex is going to feel or get some of my anger (not sure how yet) but plenty of time to think in jail.

The separation between ex and I was not agreed. As far as I was concerned, she could go if she wanted but she could not take the child and expect me to fall in line with her demands. Ex obviously wanted me to dance to her tune and I refused, then ex demanded that I pay her 4 times over the CSA payments or she get the CSA involved. I would not submit to her demands.

Long story short, why should I pay an ex money if she had broken agreements, caused me more debt than I ever had in my life, infuriated me to no end, tried to intimidate me away from the child and told so many lies about me (to court as well) that I would need a second life time to correct it all.]

I would however say that I am prepared to pay for activities my child attends, but I want ex to take him to the activity. She (as I know her) would take the child for 2 months, then realise that she gets nothing from the activity and her own needs will take over and the child gets left to be attended by the electric nanny again.

The bloke (if he is anything like me) wants to feel and see that the money he spends goes straight to the child and he wants to see you sharing the cost of items purchased. That share might be 50/50 but it could be agreed 60/40 or something.

If you want to do anything clever, look for ways to get arrangements agreed otherwise you are going to live a life of hope and misery.

You broke the biggest agreement, the relationship and I would think that at some point, you and he agreed to stay together. He sees you as the "wrong" person and you can't be trusted - from his perspective.

I expect that the bloke would pay for school cloths, school dinners, some activities that he wants the child to attend and if you asked for a nominal amount per week, perhaps a tenner, then he would pay that. Rather than kick up a fuss, accept what you get, even if it's under the amount that the CSA suggest. Once the CSA get involved, hostility will grow and grow.

Many people have tried to convince me, some good friends of mine. The general understanding is that we agree to disagree now. Maintenance and CSA don't get into the conversation, unless someone wants to argue and potentially end a friendship. I won't back down, neither will they. I personally hate the CSA with a passion. I have seen the destruction they cause and heard of people who commit suicide thanks to the CSA. Any organization that damages a non resident parent to pacify a resident parents demands should be decriminalized.

I hope that helps.

boredveryverybored Sat 17-Jan-09 04:11:00

It's not just about activities and school uniforms and the likes though is it?
What about, food, electricity, rent/mortgage, gas etc etc etc. There is no way on earth any parent is paying what they would be on those things if they were a single person with no dependants.
Children cost a hell of a lot of money, and it's not always obvious where.
It's fine saying I'll give you a tenner a week to pay for activities that my child does, but what about the rest? why shouldn't those costs be shared?
N1 if your ex showed you on paper how much extra she is paying in basics for your child, would you agree to contribute to those costs?
Is it just that you can't see where the money would go?
I expect you and the op's ex are the type of 'parent' who doesn't hear or doesn't want to hear the words 'It is not about you and her, no matter how much you may hate each other or have relationship issues. The only thing that matters is YOUR child and one of the most basic responsibilities of any parent is to provide their child with the basics they need to live'
There is nothing more to it. you can try and cloud the issue with any manner of hateful things about your ex, and they may be perfectly true and she might be a horrible person, but thats always irrelevant, because it's not about your ex is it? It's about your child. And I very much doubt that your child has done anything to warrant you withdrawing support from them.

northwest1 Sat 17-Jan-09 10:05:10

I agree entirely with the last post. N1, you have a responsibility to pay the CSA amount, no more no less. Try to see things from your child's point of view and put him/her ahead your own feelings of hurt and anger. In practice, that means taking the CSA judgement on the chin and fighting to change the law. Can't you see that if you don't do this then your child loses out, not just financially but in increased tension between you and your ex which is very damaging.

N1 Sat 17-Jan-09 12:11:30

I did want to mention that I am not implying that the OP has done anything bad to the ex, apart from leaving the relationship.

I have no confidence in my child getting any benefit of the money because the ex feels that she is more important than the child, it's always been the case and I am sure it will always be the case.

I personally think that a true test would be the "shoe" test. Let the absent parent wear the shoe and the other parent pay money. Walking in another person's shoes gives a person an entirely different perspective.

I will not pay any money to my ex because any money I pay to her will be diverted away from the child and paid in a direction to help push me out my child's life. Do I want to pay to help push me out the child's life..... sounds like kicking yourself in the face.

To my ex, it's about money. Her view is that if she can't have my money, I shouldn't have it either, so anyone else can have it, solicitors, courts, government...anyone, just not me. So I am back to my original question, should I be giving money to an ex like my ex?

I think not.

So the next better step is to pay for things that I know will go to my child, cloths, pay for activities that the child attends (for as long as he attends) and keep myself in a position where I can see where the money goes. Seeing receipts is not going to sway me. I am not interested in knowing about the rent, electric, etc. She walked out and obviously walked out believing that she can survive. She made the decision without my agreement and that decision is irreversible.

My ex wouldn't want my child to live with me because she can't bear the thought of the child doing more with me than what she is prepared to do with the child.....her needs being more important again. She feels the need to not be seen as the worse parent.

So back to the question, should I be paying money to an ex, when it feels like I am throwing money away?

or

am I better at paying the money that I can to areas where I know the child gets it. It's not the best, but the situation is as close as I can get to best to keep me knowing that I can still see the child and the child gets some advantage of my money.

PenelopePitstops Sat 17-Jan-09 12:14:55

N1 then you should put away all the money you should be giving your child, and when ths child is 18 and old enough to chose what to do with the money, let the child decide.

do you have access?

sarah293 Sat 17-Jan-09 12:15:22

Message withdrawn

Lauriefairycake Sat 17-Jan-09 12:19:26

N1 - I don't understand why you don't want to know about the rent/electric - surely you want your child to be somewhere safe and warm ? Most parents I know (trawl some posts on here) say that actually we can put up with sitting here a bit chilly but when the children are here we have to have it warmer.

Are you saying that if your ex gave you receipts for food, football boots, football coaching, swimming lessons, school uniform you would be happy to pay?

Do you go round with groceries for the child? I don't know if you can buy vouchers for fruit or anything or pay school dinners?

I'm not getting at you by the way - I'm genuinely trying to think of ways that you can contribute that would be beneficial for the child.

LadyLiffey Sat 17-Jan-09 12:46:56

Message withdrawn

AnitaBlake Sat 17-Jan-09 13:15:34

I suppose another aspect of this is the requirement for 'NRP' to pay maintenance to the PWC when care is split 50/50, surely if both parents are paying 50% of the costs already, no further contribution to upkeep should be needed? It strikes me as unfair that the maximum reduction in CSA is 4/7-£7. If both parents make equal effort, neither should be paying the other.

LadyLiffey Sat 17-Jan-09 13:48:23

N1, thank you for answering. You are not my x and I know that because I didn't have an affair, but you have a very similar mindset.

All of your 'reasons' for not contributing to your child's upbringing revolve around your xwife. It is her fault you don't contribute.

When your child is a young adult, are these reasons going to cut ice?? Will you be able to say, "well son/daughter I contributed nothing to your upbringing because your mother blah blah blah..." That will make you look crazy. It will only serve to complete explain and validate your x's decision to leave you.

That 'line of defence' is going to make you look deluded, bitter, selfish and mean.

And what happens one day if you wake up in 20 yrs and don't feel hatred and bitterness for your x anymore. YOu'll have sabotaged your child's childhood for nothing and it'll be too late to undo it. ONE childhood. That's all anybody gets.

The most worrying thing of all about your post, and the thing that is in absolute parallel with my own x's mindset is that you clearly don't understand that your xw had the right to leave the relationship, but your child will understand that part.

I hate to break it to you, but your child is not going to grow up and think "how DAREd Mummy leave Daddy? How very dare she?".

In your message to me you said, you didn't mean to imply that I had done "anything wrong, other than leaving the relationship."

It is not wrong to leave a relationship. It's sad when they don't work out, especially when there are children, but it is not a crime to leave a man. By not grasping this, you dehumanise your x.

You have taken the liberty of deciding that you won't contribute to your child's upbringing. YOu are stealing from your x by forcing her to incurr the entire cost. You're happy with that, it gives you some satisfaction, which you need, but believe me buddy, there's no way you can ever come out of this with the moral highground.

Your x has her childhood under her belt. Whatever money you give her for your child would make both their lives easier yes, but ultimately, it will affect your child's life and future more. Your child's opportunities, lifestyle etc... the people he/she feels confident mixing with...

If you ever do have the paper bag marked denial lifted off your head, and with new lucidity you realise that your x DID have the right to bail out of your relationship (whatever you both promised), then you will realise what a huge mistake you have made.

When your child asks for an explanation in 15 yrs time, you need to have something better than "I hate your mother and I wanted to make her pay for daring to leave me" ready.

Good luck to you with that one. Although, maybe you don't care that much. Maybe your child's good opinion of you matters less than a disposable income. In which case, who could reason with you? So, well done, spend all your money on yourself.

northwest1 Sat 17-Jan-09 14:01:17

Well flamed. N1 you so had that coming.

dittany Sat 17-Jan-09 14:02:49

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

dittany Sat 17-Jan-09 14:10:05

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

N1 Sat 17-Jan-09 14:26:48

I do have access. It cost me over £40 000 in legal fees and 2 years of being litigant in person. I still have the debts.

I don't hate my ex, I hate what she does (and did) to the point that I would turn and walk away from her if she fell into the water. I wouldn't do anything to help her and I wouldn't do anything to be further unhelpful to her. The CSA are destructive so I wouldn't pay into their pot.

All the money I get goes to make sure I can collect my son and return him. There is none left after that. I pay monthly to some things that I know my son gets, I do accept that it's not much. If I paid more, I have to cut contact and I wouldn't do that.

My son is already aware that I don't pay his mother much, he knows about the things that I do pay for. I doubt I need to explain anything in the future to him, it it happens, then so be it.

My ex would rather keep a child in the cold and hungry than agree to him coming to live with me (in the warm). I would go so far as to say that the ex would rather see the child in care than imagine me happier (with my son) Everything is a jealous rage with my ex, full of competition.

My son is to young at the moment to be listened to, I think that by the time he gets to about 12, he will be living with me. Ex will have fathered her 7th child to the 4th bloke in her 6th relationship...or something like that.

N1 Sat 17-Jan-09 14:33:46

The law agrees with an absent parent paying for their child, but by the law applying force, the absent parent gets decriminalized for objecting to paying money to a distrustful person. The CSA are happy to take and pay money but are not happy to confirm that the money actually gets used for the advantage of the child.

Why should an absent parent comply with a law that doesn't monitor the expenditure? Even worse, not take the resident parents income into consideration.

I have seen several amicable break ups. Parents talking and agreeing. Both understanding about the others situation. Add the CSA into the picture and destruction, court proceedings, no communication, no flexibility....etc. When one parent expects more than an absent parent can reasonably afford and the resident parent tries to force the absent parent down by taking more than they are willing to give, any person is going to feel conned and get aggressive.

Then the problems start.

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