HELP!! contact orders and cafcass

[meNmine]

Hi i was wondering if anyone can help me, i have a 6 yr old who has never had anything to do with her father except a couple of meetings when she was 4 (his doing not mine) we have lived around the corner from him for the last 4 yrs. We have just moved with my new (as far as hes concerned) partner and out of the blue i was served outside daughters school and the order was for me to attent court in 2 days time as he was taking me to court for contact, i had to write to the judge and personnally deliver it as i was going on holiday the next day, when i came back from holiday i had just walked through customs when a man grabbed me around the arm and served me. I have been to court were my ex asked for no hearings inbetween just a final hearing as he had spent so much getting me there? i had to beg for cafcass as they were just going to make an order for contact there and then for a child that dosnt know him. he is demarding 3 weeks supervised by me or a family memeber if it has to be, then unsupervised for a few hrs for 3 wks then everyother wkend with over night stays, shared holidays and shared christmas. most dads who have bothered with there children should be entitlled to this but surely not a dad whos not bothered for 6 yrs and surly not this quickly, i have just recieved his statement which was 16 pgs long bad nouthing me when my statement was just fact and a few pgs long with nothing really bad about him, his statement is full of lies about me our relationship everything really he is making out he has had more contact than he has, surely he will trip up on this when caffcass talk to my daughter and realise she doesnt knoe him at all, all she remembers is one day out with him where she says she heard him call me bad names adn she now wont even talk about him, so how am i going to get her to see him?

[ElenorRigby]

Could you please use some paragraphs and grammar?
Or find some help.
Sorry I cannot understand your post....

[GypsyMoth]

for goodness sakes....its a forum not a schoolroom!! it is a clear enough post for me.

cafcass should be able to help and will speak to your child. wishes and feelings meeting i think its called. this will all be taken into account.if he hasn't seen your dughter for so long,then courts will almost always start the contact in a contact centre. this will help establish a relationship. i can't see that access supervised by you would ever work!!

[meNmine]

Hi sorry not been able to get back online for a while.

Sorry iv never posted anything on the internet before this. It is a little messy sorry

Thank you for your reply Brie, im still waiting for cafcass they are coming next week, but now im really worried as im told not to say to much as they will think im bitter and not listen to me, how do i get my point across if i cant say anything?

Ex has been sending cards every 4 weeks as per court order so far, he asked if he could send christmas pressies (2nd time in her life) i said yes but not to do what he did the year b4 and bomard her with 20 gifts from grandmas, aunties, cousins..... as she didnt take it well. In his cards he always signs it as daddy and my daughter just goes mad, saying hes not my dad.. My solicitor wrote to ex and told him her reaction, which he completley ignored..
Now she wont let me read her the cards or except the pressie he has sent for her birthday, as soon as i got the card out and started reading she got really cross with me and said iv told you i dont want to read them and i dont want to talk about him anymore, iv had enough now!

Will cafcass be able to help me talk to her about him, i want to encourage her for her sake, not that i can think of anything good will come of her having anything to do with any of them and the fact that he has lied and lied to the court. But my feelings aside in the end its upto her

[N1]

I can't quiet understand how the ex has told the Judge that he just wants a court order and CAFCASS support that without even seeing the child or hearing your side - that's not right. I don't have a lot of good to say about CAFCASS in general, but they usually get both sides of a story (even if one side of the story is full of lies). One side can be riddled with lies but CAFCASS don't have any intention of getting to the truth, they just want to skirt around any argumentative issues and hope they go away.

The Dad has a contact plan presented, which is unusual - or someone is helping the dad. I am guessing that he is litigant in person.

The dad had to serve a court order to attend court twice - which if shown to a Judge, makes you look obstructive. The Judge might consider ordering you to pay some costs back to the dad.

The obvious question is, do you oppose the contact plan? Will it not work for any reason? Can you propose a better plan?

The next question, have you responded to the ex's statement? and submitted the response statement to all parties and court? Ideally with evidence to support what you are saying.

If the dad is saying that he had more contact than he actually had. Dispute the issue and ask for dates and times and locations. Before you dispute the issue about contact. How much exaggeration did the ex give in his statement. If it's a few hours or days in 6 years, it's hardly worth arguing over.

A court usually looks to the future and how to get to the final aim. Past is usually considered past as far as possible.

One worry you are going to encounter is the child refusing indirect contact attempts. The easy argument for the dad is to accuse you of turning the child against the dad (who she hardly knows) and the question most likely thought would be along the lines of who is influencing the child into thinking that the dad is the nasty person.

The child is 6, anything the child says should be recorded and not given much weight but if the dad argues that the child is presenting an influenced voice, the child's word should not be accepted at all.

This has the scope to be a right mess in court. The more the dad agues with the mother, the more CAFCASS are going to want to claim that the parents are at war with each other to the point of not being able to see the effect the argument has on the child - so a guardain gets appointed to represent the child's views independently. Just guardians tend to lie and manipulate.

So it looks like the next option is (if I were you - and keep in mind that I am not you) to respond to the ex's statement.

Consider a contact plan, but have review steps in the plan - so the plan gets reviewed before the next phase of the contact plan progresses.

Expect a bit of a bumpy time. Court proceedings are not east when you have one dishonest party. Many have been through the process so it's not impossible. Keep that in mind

Finally. If you don't agree with something - Do not agree. You can't go backwards.

[pinguthepenguin]

The voice of a 6yr old should not be given much weight?

I do hope you're joking, N1.

[N1]

The voice of a 6 year old child is not given much weight by CAFCASS reporters. It's an argued point about how much weight should be given by the parents.

Sadly the child's views are generally just recorded (if they are written down and presented in a report), unless the child coincidently wants the same as the CAFCASS reporter wants.

Children from about 9 and 10 get their views recorded and some weight is given to what is said.

I am not saying that children of 6 should not be listened to. I am saying that you might want to get other stronger evidence and use that with the child's view supporting the evidence rather than relying on something like a 6 year olds view (voice).

[pinguthepenguin]

I see my message was deleted, but not ANOTHER of EleanorRigbys offensive remarks in the lone parents forum.

Very democratic of you.

[GypsyMoth]

It wasn't even offensive! Can't believe it was deleted

[pinguthepenguin]

No Tiff. it was not offensive. Except of course to the one who posted it, hence the deletion.
What is offensive is having to read yet another of said posters unnecesary and snide remarks.

[meNmine]

Thanks for your replies..

he said to the court that he had spent so much money getting me to court that could the next hearing be a final hearing

when i say him i mean his barrister

he was asked if he was going for cost and he said no as i was on benifit

What happened was.. my grandad became ill last yr so i moved to help out, i had been with my partner for years but we had kept it quite and didnt live together, when i was moving we decided to move together and be open about being together.

I had been moved 5 or so months i was outside dd school when a man served me with a court order to appear in court in 2 days with a penal notice attached.

this was the 1st i knew of any of this
I was going on hols the next day so wrote a letter to the judge explaining i had just recived this, that i was going on holiday, attached flight details and said but above all had no time to consult a solicitor. i drove to the court because if id of posted it would of got there after id gone on hols.

I get bk walk through customs and get served again in front of dd, wasnt nice!

Once id got a sol, she got all the paperwork, ex had a sol letter sent to my old address after id moved, then served me there when he got no reply (this is while driving past my road twice a day, so would of known i wasnt there) he had filled in a find 2 seek? saying he knew i was there up untill recently and now id done a runner.

In court ex said pretty much that, my barrister came bk with.. as soon as i was aware of procedings i wrote to the judge, drove it personaly, that was hardly the actions of someone taking it lightly.

cafcass havent agreed to anything yet as we havent seen them, but when in court ex asked for final hearing next & judge agreed??

my sol says theres no way it can be as ex is making up knowing dd.

ex is paying sols (well mummy is).

No i do not agree to his plan, it is to fast.
when dd met him 4 the 1st time at 4yrs, from the 1st meetin he went on about taking her infront of her, when we would get home dd would say "im not going with him i dont know him", after a couple of meetings she said to me "i dont want to see him again" couldnt get it out of her why... since i have started talking about ex again shes told me that she heard him on the phone saying bad things about me!? that she thought he was horrible & had a nasty mouth & she was not going to see him

so no i dont agree to 3 wks supervised then over nights i think that is far to fast! he keeps signing his cards daddy and its really not helping the situation.

Yes we have done statements & replys, i did attach some evidence, sol thought it would be best not to attach it all as i would look like i was out to get him.
He was saying he had paid willingly through csa since she was born and triple the amount he paid, so attached letter from csa saying after 2yrs they had made an attachment to his earnings, then he asked for dna, then how much he did actually pay (has stoped paying now as started his own company last yr)and that he said he only had a couple of drinks once or twice a month, i attached his facebook which had comments like 18 pints im f**d & about 6 days of drinking ...
he lied about dd said she was a 1 nite stand & lied about our relationship but i cant prove that!
He tried to punch me on holiday when i was pregnant and a friend and i had to stop him, he wrote in his reply that this never happened and that there was no way we could of stoped him as hes a 20 stone man, well 7 years ago he was 10 stone if that! nt bloody 20, i have a statement from the friend that was there but she still lives in the same town as him and doesnt want him to know her adress so my sol said i could'nt attact it..
Do you think i should show cafcass this???

He is saying he had contact until 9months, then again at 2 then again at 4

i put in my statements dates and places of all contact, which was a few times when she was born, a a few times when she was 4.

I have never said anything bad to her about him, to be honest we've hardly had any conversations about him.

Sorry that is so long (not even the half of it) ite such a frustrating situation

[Janos]

Lots of sympathy meNMine. It sounds very frustrating and upsetting.

Keep a record of your XPs behaviour, notes, a diary or whatever. Also, this thread.

Do you have a way of disproving what he says anout contact?

One query..why must your XP know your friends name and address if she gives a statement? That's not meant to be an aggressive question, I genuinely don't know the ins and outs of that one.

I think you should show it to cafcass as it evidence of violent behaviour.

[Janos]

Also, do be aware that there are some people on these threads who post with an agenda and may not be offering the most helpful advice.

I've been burnt that way myself!

Good luck and keep posting for support, it must be very difficult for you.

[meNmine]

Hi Janos

Thanks for your message

I have kept diarys, old mobiles with txt that he said never happened.

Im not sure in what way i could prove the contact, i have all exact dates of contact and also the fact cafcass are speaking to dd they will (i hope) realise she doesnt know him.

I have no idea my sol just said if she couldnt give evidence because she didnt want him to have address then i couldnt use the statements.

thank you i really wasnt sure if i should show cafcass or not.

Good or bad commments from anyone doesnt really matter as you can take from anyone things that you find useful, and also as i have seen it from the other side i know that if there is a parent on here being treated badly by another parent they are only going to see it from there point of view, but should also understand that not all parents are loving parents some just do have a diff agenda.

Im sorry uv had bad advice thats a shame as most people post genuinly need/want good honest advice.

I have cafcass coming tomorrow (i have to pick him up from the train station as he doesnt drive!) im now really worried as iv not seen many people with a good word to say about them, i had pinned all my hopes on them that they would do whats best for dd and make that decision based on facts not lies. really really worried now

[Janos]

on't worry - it was only one thread! I've had lots of great suppport on here and it hasn't put me off.

I think it's good that you have a diary and details of contact he has missed etc. That is all 'in your (and your DDs) favour'. If he has denied doing things that you have proof of then he is going to look pretty stupid isn't he? I can't imagine that will go in his favour.

I totally understand how you must be feeling - apprehensive and racked with nerves because this is so important. Are you ok? Do you have anyone who can be there for you IRL?

You can always keep posting here for support. Thinking of you.

[meNmine]

Thank you!

I do have most of my family and a lovely partner for support IRL (its taken me ages to figure that out ha ha) but im finding it really hard to talk to them.

My partner is always asking me to talk to him, but i deal with this crap so much by the time hes home i just dont want to talk about it or i just dont know how to put it into words.

The worst feeling is that im ment to be the person who protects my little girl and i feel like its been taken out of my hands and decisions that are going to turn her life and the rest of ours upside down will be made on a pack of lies.. arrr i could scream right now im sooo frustrated.

[meNmine]

Have seen cafcass today, nope they dont take the view of a 7 yr old (just had her birthday) and tricked her into going to his office to meet ex!

[OnlyWantsOne]

what?????? cafcass did what?????

[meNmine]

he basically asked if she would see ex, dd kept saying no so he said how about if u come to my office and met him, dd said no so he said okay come to my office and then decide, and that if she didnt want to see him she wouldnt have to. So she said yes eventually he kept saying it untill she agreed.

then said to me that she had agreed to meet ex so he was going to get me to go in the room with her 1st then i walk out ex can walk in, i said but that doesnt give her much choice, he said well once shes there!

dd and i spoke at bed time and she said im not seeing him/ex, i said but uv told the man today that you will she said no i didnt i said id go to his office but i dont have to see ex, i said well there isnt much point in going darling if ur not even going to think about, she said oh! but he said i didnt have to! can i tell him iv changed my mind, i said no not really.

Also dd has been part of a drama/dance school since 3yrs old, this isnt just a club, she does alsorts of productions and exams, something she finds really important, cafcass man said she would not be able to do it any more as it was at the time the contact centre would be open. She is going to hate me when i have to tell her. Only upside is i wont have to brake my back finding the money to pay for it.

[Janos]

What? They are saing to your DD that she has to see her Dad? Is that what they are meant to be doing?!

And she's saying she can't go to a class/club that is important to her and a big part of her life because she has to go to the contact centre?

That doesn't sound right to me at all. Not disbelieving you for a moment but it just sounds like he has come in with an agenda or trying to get your DD to see your her Dad regardless of what she wants.

This all sounds very odd/ Maybe others who have experience of CAFCASS could offer some insight?

[meNmine]

yep cafcass said that he really had to see dd with ep as he had seen her with me, he said that at least if it doesnt go well and ep then refuses contact centre saying that dd knows ep, cafcass can say well no the last meeting didnt go well!

About dd classes i was really unhappy about him saying this and i let him know, but he said that the court would see it as far more important that she have contact with her father than going to classes as the contact centre was only open at that time.

[solidgoldbrass]

Have you got some sort of legal adviser of your own? I think you should contact Women's Aid straight away and ask for their help or to be referred to someone - because I think you need to put in a complaint about the Cafcass representative. It sounds like he is bullying your DD and overstepping the mark considerably. And the idea of basically tricking or trapping a child into seeing a father that she has repeatedly expressed a wish not to see sounds very dodgy indeed.

[N1]

Can I ask.... What has changed that makes the dad want to see the child now but not in the last few years? Try (if you can) to list the points in point form.

I am sorry to hear that your dad did not go well.

[meNmine]

Is it really a good idea to complain though, at least he is suggesting contact centre i was warned that they could just give him contact if they believed he knew her like he says.

He says nothings changed he has always wanted to just iv stoped him..

iv never said no

i lived in the next street from him for 5 yrs

I heard nothing from him for years then my dp and i decided we would be moving with each other and everyone found out we were together. this is november 07

then at christmas 07 for the 1st time he sent her loads of presents from daddy, grandma & so on..
then again for her bday end of feb 08

in may we moved and the next thing i know this is happening

[N1]

My last post should have read....sorry to hear that your day did not go well.

So....it looks like the dad got jealous and wants to make sure that the new man isn't called Dad....and now he has to make an impression.

Court proceedings have a way of driving a wedge in new relationships, to the point that the relationship breaks down.

The contact center will only last for 3 months, then it's either unsupervised contact or you supervise..... the latter not being ideal.

If your child is forced into contact, it might affect the child's schooling.

What is the contact center arrangement proposal by CAFCASS?