is it unusual to think xp is wanting more contact than i can give?

[revelyell]

recently (last month) split from xp. our DS is 8 months. I left because the fights were too much and i knew i wouldnt be happy in the relationship. he had admitted that he wasnt in love with me and didnt try to stop me leaving but now makes out that I left him and that it wasnt as mutual as I think it was. i think it helps him to paint himself the victim! or is that mean of me...

anyway the point is that he started off saying he should have DS half the week. I said no way, he cant be witout me that long esp as i was the main carer and the one to put him to bed every night ever since he was born (XP worked late throughout- not his choice, just the hours)

now I have moved out and am living with parents whilst i work out housing benefit etc, he is demanding two nights a week, and when I am back in london wants a 'few hours a day'.

do y'all think im unreasonable to not want to hand over DS two nights a week? I already work full time and this would mean an really difficult amount of separation for me. I was a SAHM and as unfashionable as it is, I am convinced my bond with DS is too strong to be giving XP anything like 50% care. he wasnt exactly sprinting home from work to make it to put him to bed when we lived with him, whereas my life was constantly organised around DS as my first priority.

as for a few hours a day- i dont see that this can work, how would that be sustainable in the future when XP goes on location for another job? surely consistency of contact is important for DS? and how would it be sustainable for either of us when/if we get new partners etc.

anyway he is furious with me for suggesting one night a week plus him coming to us for breakfast or dinner or something once or twice a week. I think this sounds loads..! I want to get outside perspective on whether i am being reasonable or not...

(ps. I do think its important for DS and his dad to have a close relationship.)

im braced for honest responses though..
Ta!

[1066andallthat]

The first thing that strikes me is he is asking for a totally clean slate i.e. he wants the same deal as you but you weren't 50-50 before. Saying that, you know him, so, do you think, if you built up to shared care, he would be up for it? In your opinion, is he a good role model for DS? What has he suggested about the times he is working away?

I wouldn't be having him round for meals at the moment - it would blur the boundaries for me.

If you find yourself going round and round in circles about this, think about going to mediation.

[revelyell]

thanks 1066. he's not a patient man and refuses to pin down to certain days/times. says ' i dont do routines'. im trying to point out that DS needs a routine. shared care- I couldnt do it. I just dont believe in it, i think 50 50 disrupts a child (although what do i really know, im a beginner at children!)

as to role model.. i think he can be moody, overbearing, arrogant and overly critical so no i think im a better role model but of course i would, we just broke up! its probably not for me to judge as im severely biased

as to when hes working away he wants every saturday night. i think this is fine.

as to the meals. i think youre right, but i cant find a way to meet his demands without losing my DS so can only suggest ways for us to see him together...

im gonna look at mediation but i dont hold out much hope. he says whats the point of mediation except to make a verbal contract thats enforceable by law, in which case youre practically in the courts anyway...

[wirral]

I'm not sure if this is going to be helpful but I was in a similar situation. My ex works 6 weeks shifts (2 of the weeks are not set shifts) and I work full time.

When we seperated he wanted to see our daughter every time that he was available including taking to school when possible and irregular overnights etc.

I do knew that this was admirable as he obviously still wanted to see daughter but not me etc.

I couldn't cope ( workwise) with the irregularity of his suggested contact arrangements which also would have caused me to spend long periods without our daughter when ex wasn't working.

It took a lot of negotiating but we now have a system and a regular routine. This is, in my opinion ( I'm not sure ex would agree) working well. Our daughter is well aware of the routine and is coping well.

We did go to mediation but to be honest we really worked it out between ourselves

Good luck

[1066andallthat]

Have you put this past a decent family lawyer? I hardly use mine BUT I do have one and they keep me sane and oddly enough, out of court. The first half hour advice is free - I got mine over the phone. Every single penny I have paid since has been worth it.

When you have an ex- playing games, I find it helpful to have someone who is in my corner but still objective to go over things with.

Even if you concede every Saturday night, make sure he is aware that it might not be every single one, for example if DS is ill or you have a family commitment - things have to be flexible.

What is he like with DS? Has he ever had sole-charge? Could he have DS on a regular basis in the day when you are at work? Like Wirral suggested take him to nursery or pick him up and have him an hour? What would work for you?

Wirral - were you still talking with your ex, like civil human beings , when you split? For me, the real problem is I do not communicate with my ex- because he doesn't do communication.

[wirral]

Hi 1066, nope we weren't speaking like civil human beings. We have only just started speaking and attending events together ( concerning our daughter)

I found it very difficult to communicate - too hurt and confused by his actions.

With regard to contact I felt that I was being bullied and pushed into a corner to fit in with the new life that he had mapped out for himself. I couldn't really get anyone to understand that I wasn't trying to stop ex having contact with our daughter but needed a routine for my work / sanity and to stop our daughter being confused.

Unlike your solicitor I didn't find mine that helpful but did manage to achieve a resolution of sorts that I feel happy with and more importantly daughter feels happy with.

I don't want to hijack this thread but the only recent problem that I have is that ex has half the holidays and daughter doesn't want to go ..... but that's another story

[misi]

as a father who has been on the receiving end of this type of conversation, I find this very diffcult to answer without causing uproar!!
I was main carer of my son for the first 18 months of his life whilst I held down a full time (50+hours) job. my ex and I had started a new business which due to delays, began exactly 2 weeks after the birth. MY ex had rejected our son at birth and refused to hold him for around 2 hours. (it took a lot of soap to get his goo out of my chest hair afterwards as he had been on my chest, bonding for such a long time ) for the next 18 months, I did all his washing, bathing, nappy changing (except one day a week when she was at home but she did the bare minimum). I made up all his bottles after she finally gave up breastfeeding (10 weeks), and during the day whilst at work, I had him in a baby carrier on my front, then later on my back. when not in this carrier he was in his pushchair at the side of the till or later, in his baby chair. I often fed him in the shop, once with the help of customers as my ex had gone walk about yet again. when he was 10 months old, my ex placed him in a nursery because she didn't want him in the shop, but I picked him up after the shop shut and still did all the caring. at 18 months old, my ex told me to get out, and the first thing she did was go to a solicitor who wrote me a letter saying that if I ''mucked around'' I would only see my son 1 day a fortnight but if I played ball, I would see him every week, so after 2 months of no contact whatsoever, I reluctantly agreed to the every week. my trial hearing in court some months later separated my son away from me for good on the basis of not altering the status quo that had been acheived by spurious means and my son still suffers to this day with court action taking place yet again to stop her cutting our contact down to hardly anything.

as for other contact issues, I am a firm believer in shared residence and shared care where ever possible and I will not say anything more as that is what will be the contentious issue. having been more like the traditional idea of a mum to my son for 18 months, I can understand the empathy and bond a mother has with the child, but bear in mind that usually the father has no choice but to go out to work and have little to do with the general caring of the child and should not be penalised for that after a separation. every one has to learn how to be a good parent by experience, if experience is denied or (through work say) minimal, it is no wonder a father becomes ''bad'' in the eyes of everyone else.

( this does not take into account extra ordinary situations though, like violence and abuse etc, that is a whole different ball game whether it be the father or mother guilty of the abuse etc)

[Harra]

Hi revelyell,
Have been in a similiar situation to you though my xp was/is much more unreasonable than yours sounds. Split when ds was 10 months - I was the main carer still breastfeeding though at the time of the split xp had looked after ds for 2 nights on his own as I was having my appendix out. To start with xp would have 2 nights very week though I would see ds every day as still bf. Xp would not pay any money. When I went back to work (part time) xp took me to court to get more access. He now has ds (aged 2 1/2 now) 11 nights out of 28 on a rota 2 nights one week, 3 nights, 2 nights and 4 nights as dictated by the court. Some people say I was lucky he didn't get 50/50 - I think I was hugely unlucky as xp did some dreadful things such as threatening not to bring ds back and very emotionally abusive to me in front of ds. He chooses not to work so as to pay me as little as possible. CSA are involved - but he is a lawyer and working the system. After the court order he asked me to provide 'free child care' for times when he was to have ds. I'm sure he loves ds but he has done all this to spite me not to actually want to have ds for this amount of time. Cafcass were involved.

Hopefully you and your ex can remain amicable. Mediation did not work for us. Currently we do not see each other at handovers - a childminder or my family do that. From my court experience and from reading many posts on here 50/50 seems to be what a lot of families aim for. Like you I don't feel that is in the best interest of ds but you wanted honesty. However your ds is still very young and I don't think many people would think that is right at his age.

Horrible situation for you and I can truely emphasis. Try and remain focused on your ds and what would be the best for him which is really hard to do. Xp would use the fact that I worked and ds would be better placed with him than the CM - sometimes I think maybe I shouldn't have gone back to work. Things will get clearer with time.
HTH.

[gillybean2]

Just to be clear, anything agreed at mediation is not legally binding.

He probably doesn't understand the court process. If he took you to court they would firstly try and get you to agree to something and want to see attempts at mediation. So why wait for that when he will have to do it anyway!? The courts are very reluctant to make orders and always try and get agreement. If you can do that ourside of the court then that is better (sanity & money wise) for everyone really!

You say you want your ex to have a close relationship with ds. How do you expect this to arise if they don't spend time together?

Ask him how he expects to be able to maintain this level of care given that he couldn't when you were together. Part of him staying out at work late might have been that he simply didn't want to come home to more rows though, so he might be able to. Also ask him what he expects will happen when he has to go away. Does he expect you to work around him or is he going to start looking for ways to work around his son and to change his work to adapt to his family situation now?

Court won't look at what is best for you, they will look at what is best for your child. So while you might find it a 'difficult amount of separation' that isn't really relevant. You will get used to it with time.

Young babies and children are generally thought to benefit from frequent but short contact times. As they get older longer times (including several overnights in a row) which fit in around school and holidays are generally moved towards.

See if you can get an agreement from your ex to pick your ds up from nursery a couple of times a week (say at 4pm) and have him for a couple of hours. And for 4 hours at the weekend increasing to 6 then 8 then overnight...

Don't encourage contact at your house, it blur's the lines for everyone, including your ds. Even if your ex simply takes him to the library or park for a walk in his buggy or something like that he can take him out of the house. You do not have to be there to supervise, hard as it is your ex wil learn just as you did how to care for his ds by neing allowed to. You will only end up in even more arguments if he doesn't do things exactly how you want them.

Arrange for mediation. It can help you both get past your personal feelings and work on what is best for the welfare of your child now you are no longer together.

Gilly

[lou031205]

Misi - that is awful for you . Noone can take away the love you gave your son for his first 18 months. Keep hold of that.

[Twinkie1]

He is not taking your child away - you are both his parents and you will have to learn to share him - as he gets older at least every other weekend and half of holidays are normal so I would perhaps try and get into that routine ASAP.

He is not attacking you he is wanting to see his child - something that is entirely reasonable and if I were him I would be fighting through the courts for adequate access if you couldn;t bring yourself to come to a reasonable agreement.

And as a mother who fought for custody of her child from a complete bastard but realises the importance of both parents in the childs life I do understand what you are going through but it is just something you are just going to have to learn to accept.

[misi]

twinkie1 every other weekend and half holidays is only ''normal'' cos thats what the solicitors push for. MY ex said to me that the court would give me half the quality time with my son and her the other half, so every other weekend and half school hols is normal. what she is saying then is that the time she spends with my son before school, (getting his breakfast, getting him ready) the time after school,( doing homework, talking about his day, making his tea, bathing him, reading a bedtime story to him and putting him to bed) is not quality time but mundane boring time. my argument then would be that if this is the case, my ex can have all the quality time she wants at weekends, every weekend, as to me, quality time is any time with my son but especially those times before and after school I mentioned above as these are his formative times, when he makes sense of the world and what he is doing and has done. every other weekend and half the holidays (my ex refused to count bank hols, inset days etc as part of this as well in her so called compromise letter) is NOT QUALITY TIME, it is quality (as all time spent with your child is quality time)and fun time. what most parents forget when they embark on legal resolution is that the solicitors and barristers only make money by taking on clients. the more they can spin out the time it takes, the more money they make (and at at least £175 + VAT pe hour, it is a vast gravy train that dwarfs our MPs amd the euro MP's gravy train). if what is actually best for the child became the norm, sols and barristers would see thier revenue dry up, so what we have is a false situation based on totally discredited studies that has become ''normal'' cos in actual fact, it stirs up acrimony, and therefore more time in court etc and makes many people in the family injustice system, a lot of money. (my barrister 2 years ago was a part time barrister and part time judge at the principal registery so the judge side of his work was poorly paid at around ''only'' £50k per year, but overall he earned around £500k, very lucrative, my solicitor earnt around £200k per year but she was actually a legal exec who earn less than full blown sols). so if mediation and compromise, sorting out a situation that was truly best for the child, were the main focus, who do you think would loose out?
I do understand that some parents (mothers as well as fathers) fall short of the mark in their ability to care for a child. so as said before, unless there are legitimate reasons a child and parent should not have decent contact (violence, abuse etc) then instead of cutting one parent out, both parents should be equal to give them the experience and chance to become a good parent. I personally would change the law to make both parents keep to contact schedules. ie if a 50-50 contact schedule was agreed upon in court when one parent unilaterally decides to change contact, they should be penalised whether it is the mother stopping contact or the father not turning up or the other way round. gillybean says that courts will decide what is best for the child is true to a point, except that although ''status quo'' is not mentioned in the childrens act at any time, a court will look at this status quo first then all decisions come from that. my (biased) mediating cafcass officer at directions last week, mentioned status quo 14 times in 30 mins even though that status quo has been going on for only 2 months when my ex scarpered off 150 miles away without telling me before hand. she said that my son could not face another upheavel in his life by transferring main residence back to me and made arguments for keeping the situation as it was that even my ex's solicitor had not thought of!! (cafcass like the sols and barristers, without acrimony they would be out of jobs), she seemed not to care that my ex had ripped my son away from his TWO homes, his friends, family and support network, the school he thought he was going to and transplanted him to a foreign world where he knew no-one and now sleeps in a bed at the foot of the stairs with very little room. contact is important for both the child and the parent. as in many countries that are now ''seeing the light'' shared res and shared care should be the normal starting point when couples separate and then all further mediation/discussion and decisions made from that assumption. money/maintainance should not be a part of this process either as my ex knows all too well, that if she gets contact reduced to the ''norm'' she will benefit from increased child mainatinance as the 2/7ths reduction I get now will be taken away ( I am entitled to a travelling reduction also as for the last 3 years I have done all the travelling when my ex refused to do any and did around 150 miles per week, now that has increased to 500 miles or so, I would be entitled to a much bigger reduction but I have always refused to apply for this extra reduction). a child does better in life with both parents, socially, emotionally and in education, if both parents really want what is best for the child then both parents need to be involved with decent contact schedules.
I would even go as far to say that a parent should be forced to be a parent if need be (but I do understand that sometimes, it will be like flogging a dead horse so another solution should be found in the form of a penalty of some kind)

[Tinkerbel6]

"a child does better in life with both parents, socially, emotionally and in education"

Sorry misi but I don't agree, think thats total rubbish, there is plenty of feral children out there from 2 parent families as well as children from lone parent households, I think you should have cut your ex some slack at the beginning as it sounds like she had postnatal depression, it may seem harsh to you but I think what you was doing for you child is what any other loving dad would have done for their child.

[Tinkerbel6]

rev what about having some kind of mediation to come to a proper arrangement, maybe start off with the 1 night a week and have your ex round for a couple of nights for dinner and then see how it goes from there and build up more access, you might even appreciate the extra help

[misi]

my ex got all the slack she needed tinkerbel6, she was offered all the help she could get, even her own mum had rows with her about PND but she refused to believe she had it and you can't force someone to take meds or seek counselling. the health visitor told her, the GP told her, her midwife told her and as a health care professional herself she still refused to believe she had PND. I did what I needed to do to ensure the safety and health of not only my son but of his mum too, she could not have been more loved by anyone.
I am sorry but there are so many studies coming out at the moment that show that 2 parents are better than one but obviously, along with this, the environment, and other peer pressures will come into effect. what I have said is that in general 2 parents are better than one, always have been always will be, but todays society is encouraging one parent to be cut out with government approval and complicity. throughout history, if 2 parents were able to provide the ideal childhood every single time, then our history would not be so bloody and violent. there are always exceptions to the rule, there are always 2 parents who will not provide what is best for the child and for society in general, so society through government if neceassary should help and make sure that to give kids the best chance with what is available, both parents should be treated equally when it comes to the children and the child given the opportunity to have both parents as a matter of course. but as I said there will always be exceptions like if one parent is violent and abusive etc. I also class psychological abuse on a par with physical abuse so one parent who manipulates and turns a child against the other parent is just as guilty of abuse as one who inflicts physical harm. studies also show that a big chunk of crime is committed by kids where the father is not overly present in that childs life. that is not a critism of single mothers in any way, it is society and governments fault for their skewed policies and misplaced beliefs on fatherhood. children from 2 parent families do commit crime I know and by having 2 parents, doesn't guarantee a good solid life, but with 2 parents in general you have a better chance of not falling into crime than if you have one or one and another who flits in and out of only has limited contact. this is also the same for education and a lack of leaning at school gives more chance of falling into crime so this reinforces the need for two parents.

[Harra]

rev Reread my message and your original post. Looks like I got a bit personal.
For your situation try and thing about what you want and would be right for your ds long term. For example you said xp could see him every Saturday night. Long term, alternate weekends are pretty normal.

Really hard to do and in your sitatution what is right for an 8 month old is completely different for 5 year old. However precedents (sp)/statusquo can be helpful.

Re arguements - try and stick to the point (I'm not saying you don't but my xp had a knack of twisting things round). Reiterate that what you want is for the best for ds. Try and be open to xp suggestions but going back to 'how would it work for ds and long term'. Really good that you want xp to have a relationship with ds.

So easy to be objective about other people but when you are in your situation very hard. Good luck and it will become clearer. Keep posting - a mine field of expertise/support on here.

[Tinkerbel6]

misi you can convince yourself of that drivel, but there is no way I would believe any apparent evidence from the government that may or may not be manipulated to convince people that the county isn't being dragged down on its knees, its laughable that a man is going to make it oh so better for society and the county is going to be crime free .

By the way its actually lone parents not single mothers cause there are actually male lone parents out there, maybe take your ignorance onto another section of the board, maybe the men section so you can beat your chest with your fist.

[Twinkie1]

Misi please do not preach to me your drivel - I have been through a court case - I have been driven to the brink of suicide to fight for what is right for my daughter and you know what I really think every other weekend and half of the hoildays is best for her - the rest of the time especially school nights she needs to get in relax and be fed properly, homework and then to bed - she wouldn't benefit at all from being shuttled to her fathers, missing out on afterschool activities, brownies and sthletics just so her father got the same amount of time as me - it is best for her - not best for us - it is about what is best for her.

[misi]

maybe my posts should be read more carefully as you clearly do not understand what I have written. the ignorance is not mine

[misi]

if you believe there is only one view, one answer, and are not prepared to listen to the ''other side'' then you are adding to the problems society and children face. we are all entitled to our views and beliefs, I have stated mine to the best of my knowledge and reseach, if you choose to ignore or deny then that is your perogative, resorting to cheap remarks on other threads is not very adult is it?

[misi]

tinkerbel6,
the studies I mention are not government based or funded but by respected universities.
I agree that the man in charge now is not going to make a better society for us, he is part of the problem in my opinion. the devisive way some ministers in this government abuse their power to gain positive discrimination policies is disgusting, all discrimination whether positive or negative should be abhored. I said single mothers as they are the ones unfairly pillioried in the press and TV for failing to bring up good kids. yes, there is a minute percentage of single parent dads out there with main care, but most are because of the death of the mother and not through court order, but it is single mums who are the target of the gutter press and government as they are an easy scapegoat for the past inadequacies of government policy which is something this government in particular are good at, blaming others and not themselves. but if you wish me to deflect the appalling plight of single mums. at being blamed for something they have little control over, then I can but you are doing a big diservice to these mothers.
twinkie1, I know how you feel, I have been on the brink of suicide only last week after the latest court session saw a biased cafcass officer almost deny my application before it was heard by a judge. I too only want what is best for my son, something that shows that we have one thing in common at least. I did not say a child should be shuttled backwards and forwards during the week, I said my ex can have all what she calls quality time at the weekends she wants, as I think quality time is all the time, I am prepared to have all the what she considers the boring mundane time.
every situation and family will have a different solution and needs, at the moment, this government and system we have is a one size fits all, which is detrimental to any childs welfare and the law as it stands encourages acrimony and adversity when couple separate and instead of changing the system, government after government perpetuate the inequalities and discrimination as to change this would entail a backbone that NO prime minister has had in recent times. only when parents stop thinking about themselves and truly do what is best for the child will we stop this government and others from unfairly blaming sections of society for all its ills but especially blaming mothers for the generation of kids growing up now that are ''anti social'' and then they will be forced to do something positive instead of continually assigning blame to escape their own responsibilities and failings

[ElenorRigby]

Misi...
My sympathies for the situation you are in and thanks for your balanced, insightful and informative contributions to this thread. It is disappointing that you have been the recipient of some rudeness in response.
Have you tried going representing yourself with the help of a McKenzie friend? Also have you considered joining Families Need Fathers, a charity who aim that parents (regardless of gender) have a significant contribution to their child's care post separation.

[gillybean2]

ER - Misi is already a member, as am I

[ElenorRigby]

Thanks Gilly!

[misi]

thanks for your words elenorrigby. as gilly says I am already a member of FnF and I have a very good mackenzie friend who unfortunately was out of the country last week when my first directions took place but had a very good stand-in MK for the day. the dark thoughts are going away as I get down to my statement etc and get back to concentrating on my son even if I am spending far too much time on here

[revelyell]

Harra- thank you for your posts, they weren;t too personal they were comforting. its been a horrific week. i wasnt prepared for a situation or a person to have the power to hurt me so much. Im so worried that if i dont give him what he wants, he could be successful in getting shared care in court which then forces me to give him what he wants...

Is shared care becoming more common in court? would that happen even when the mother had been the main carer for the first 8 months of the child's life?

Misi- i appreciate your situation. i think its totally different. if my xp had been there and as devoted as much as you then he'd have much more of a case at this point in my mind.

its a really difficult one though. he says now that his lack of being a very hands on dad was only because he was stressed at work and felt he needed to take a long and difficult contract to support his new family. he says the fact he wasnt around that much and when he was, very moody and tired, im now using against him. I see his point, and sympathise. but fact is, all that time he wasnt around or tired or whatever... me and DS formed a bond that was stronger than anything ive ever known, and we got used to being together 24 hours a day! now he's ready to be a hands on dad, im supposed to be emotionally ready to hand him over!?

please someone tell me that this pain doesnt last, that I will feel that before long DS will be more ready to be with his dad and I will be ready to hand DS over, because I dont have the will to continue this for much longer- its more important that our son has parents who get on, and if its me that has to give in first to let that happen, then ...