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Families need fathers all over the news today

(470 Posts)
Sheila Fri 03-Feb-12 14:20:34

Bloody Louis de Bernieres also on R4 sounding off about his rights. It all seems so remote - I just wish XP was interested enough to demand contact with DS - usullay it's me naggaing him becuase he sees so little of his son. sad

MrGin Fri 03-Feb-12 17:44:16

Yeah, duchesse but the it was in response to StewieGM saying

"When Families need Fathers start campaigning actively on behalf of the 3/5s of resident parents who receive NO child maintenance then I might be inclined to take them more seriously."

You'll note SGM didn't say 'on behalf of the 3/5s of resident parents whos children receive NO child maintenance

It was a flippant point that SGM was saying, Families Need Fathers should be campaigning for resident parents who receive NO child maintenance.

But lets move on shall we.

toptramp Fri 03-Feb-12 21:04:13

I can't help wondering WHY these women are so bitter though. If their relationship break up was amicable then there would be no need to be bitter surely? Makes me think there must be good reason for the bitterness and subsequent access denial.

toptramp Fri 03-Feb-12 21:12:06

I have s difficult situtaion. My dds dad didn't want me to keep her but I did. He fucked off abroad when I was 8 months pregnant. I was gutted. I sent him photos when baby was born. He "falls in love" with her and realises he wants to be a "dad" after all but he can't get back due to passpost stuff (he's in Iran)

I want to deny access if he should come back to the UK because I am scared he will take her to Iran. I don't trust him. He's a fucker. She can get to know him when she's 16 if she wants. I am gutted that it has come to this. Oh yeah; he has not paid a penny maintenance and expects me to send photos.

BasilRathbone Fri 03-Feb-12 21:26:26

Truckulent, you wouldn't be a tick in that "not paying maintenance" box.

That figure refers to parents with care and control. You have joint care and control so you aren't included in there (and neither are widows and widowers btw.).

So it is the majority of all Non Resident Parents who are supposed to pay maintenance, who don't. The majority. Shameful. And nobody considers that an urgent issue to address. But we must address the urgent issue of the fewer than 10% of cases of fathers who are denied contact, usually for bloody good reasons - you can bet your bottom dollar that Duchesse's sister's ex regularly tells people that his bitter ex denies him contact and there are loads of sympathetic listeners willing to lap up his lies, because that myth of the bitch ex harpy is so strong.

BasilRathbone Fri 03-Feb-12 21:34:38

All this bollocks about CM not being for the mother.

When you live with children, you can't separate your expenditure from their's. How much of my electricity bill is for their use? How much of my water bill? How much of my mortgage, which provides the roof over their heads and which roof they will eventually inherit?

What do people mean when they say maintenance is for children? Do they mean that it should be spent on Nintendo DS's, toys, designer clothes, moshi monsters and not on the basics like the gas and electricity they use, the school uniforms, the food they eat?

Because I've heard a lot of NRP's criticise RP's for spending maintenance on the children's basic needs and it's shit. Once again, it's a control thing - spend the money I give you on stuff I dictate and don't you dare use it as a contribution to the expenses you have as a family.

adamschic Fri 03-Feb-12 21:37:15

Fine, how about making it illegal to walk away from your children. Sorry haven't read the thread and I know it's been said so many times already grin.

Thumbwitch Fri 03-Feb-12 21:58:56

I have a friend whose ex did keep him from seeing his children. He would arrange to go up and take them out for the weekend (he had to travel quite a distance) - and when he got there, she wouldn't let him in, would tell him the children weren't there, they'd gone out with friends, anything. He was lucky if he saw them twice a year, despite trying to see them every month at least. She won't let them talk to him on the phone; and when he finally got remarried (13 years after he and their mum split), they weren't allowed to come to the wedding. As far as I am aware, his new wife still hasn't met them, despite wanting to. sad

I don't know the circs of their split, but I do know that he has tried and tried to see them and be a father to them but she won't allow it (and although I can't know it for sure, I'm pretty sure that it's nothing to do with violence)

My brother has his own issues with his ex over their two children; but at least he managed to get 50:50 residence (although she tried to make him give her all weekends and he could have the weekdays!) I think it's settled down now but initially she took all the children's stuff to her new place and never returned any of it, except school uniform; wanted their beds so they'd have nowhere to sleep at their Dad's, wanted him to sell the house so that he'd have to buy somewhere smaller where they couldn't stay. He managed to retain the house (bought her out), despite her putting it on the market behind his back and bringing prospective buyers into it while he was out - he got a restraining order against her for that and a couple of other things, so she wasn't allowed in the house afterwards. Going on a bit now, but certainly, although my brother is a boring pompous arse, he didn't deserve what she tried to do to him and I'm glad that the courts saw that she was being vindictive - and she left him because she had an affair, not him!

adamschic Fri 03-Feb-12 22:08:24

I wanted my DD's dad to see her, he didn't. Don't understand how you can try and legislate this tbh. Guess it's just another mysogonist trick from this so called government.

MrGin Sat 04-Feb-12 10:38:57


Any normal person would understand that CM all those things you mention. Even the CSA website lists broadly what it should cover. Cost of housing, food, gas and electricity, clothes etc.

Of course if you're XP is unemployed and you get £5 a month you're not going to cover any of those costs.

As for the percentages of nrp who pay nothing, I'm curious how those figures are arrived at. I don't doubt it's a problem to address , but I for example, as I'm sure many others do, came to an arrangement with my XP without involving any other agencies.

So I'd guess I don't show up on any statistics ?

Thumbwitch Sat 04-Feb-12 10:51:00

That is an interesting point, Gin - I wonder whether or not you do show up as part of the statistics, but if you did, would it be as a payer or non-payer - probably non-payer as it's a private arrangement.

Riakin Sat 04-Feb-12 11:14:59

Good on them.

The fact is Families Need Fathers are gender specific only in name. They are a charity for Children first and foremost.

The attitudes of some on here that there are "not thousands" of cases beggars belief. In around 10years approximately 500,000 have had to use the Court (97% Fathers) to gain meaningful access.

You only have to look at the attitudes here... even in this thread regard that "bastard/stupid bastard ex" and statements to the similar.

The real fact is that Government data echo's data from 2007 that Contact Orders are broken half the time. If you are a black male there is a 50% chance you will lose all contact with your children. If you are a white male its around a third.

This forum by default has to accept that as well as these dead beat dads out there, there are also many thousands of vengeful women. I agree wholeheartedly with the statements of men paying zero maintenance (note that i agree they don't pay but not that they themselves are not obliging themselves to pay).

A recent FOI request my company did on the issue:
CMEC 2011:
Exact Cost to Taxpayer: £513,180,188.10
DoE's applied on current cases: 138,000
Direct Debit Payment: 104,600 + Variance (this includes monthly payment calls/cheque)
Standing Order: 46,400
Cases of Nil Compliance: 130,500
Staff: 8,200 FT
No of cases: 1,035,000 (England and Wales only)
NRP Mothers: 50,400 (not including cases administered off system approx 1000)
Cases of NRP Mothers in arrears: (deemed compliant) 32,300 (62%)

And now the part proving lack of contact:
681,000 on system live cases were 681,600 where no shared care arrangement is in place (less than 52 nights contact)

Cases of Nil liability (in other words they don't have to pay maintenance Note: Management information does not record the reason for a nil liability calculation (CMEC): 264,800 (thus around 25% of people on the CSA system pay £0 upkeep to their child) however CMEC notes: NRP's have an obligation under national law to pay Child Support when the Agency becomes involved

Average amount collected from NRP's (up until March 2011): £440 per month

Now with over a million cases on the CSA's books and in light of more than 50% having no form of shared care (overnight stays) how can someone in light of the facts argue that there are not thousands of Fathers out there?

Also we are currently awaiting an additional piece of information relating to the average paid by Non-Res-Mothers, so far data obtained suggests payments of just under £70 per month! Thats £360 less than the average! LOL should be noted last time we did this it actually resulted being near £50 wrong, so generally top end the average monthly amount paid by NRP mothers is £130.00

I'd argue that Fathers should have equal rights. Just because someone was a bad husband/partner does not mean that they will be a lousy father. I actually find quite the opposite and from people i speak to for every one person that goes to Court for contact there are around 3-4 who don't because of: Funding (70%), Distance to Child (14%), Unsettling current situation with ex partner (10%), No history with child (3%), Mental Health issues (1%) and no contact orders already in place (1%).

£440 as i have already demonstrated numerous times on here in my early days posting is a crippling amount if you are only earning around £20,000.

Thumbwitch Sat 04-Feb-12 11:39:59

I expect that would be a lot more interesting if I could understand most of what you've written, Riakin. I get some of it but most of it is shorthanded to the point of incomprehensibility for someone who isn't in the midst of it, sorry.

You're also still not taking into consideration the number of DV partners/fathers - well, not noticeably anyway.

Riakin Sat 04-Feb-12 11:58:25

Well the facts even from the NSPCC and Independent Non-Aligned DV groups both point that abuse/violence etc is carried out in almost equal portions. To recap my data:

CMEC 2011:
Exact Cost of CMEC/CSA to Taxpayer: £513,180,188.10
No of cases: 1,035,000 (England and Wales only)
Staff: 8,200 FT

DoE's applied on current cases: 138,000
Direct Debit Payment: 104,600 + Variance (this includes monthly payment calls/cheque)
Standing Order: 46,400
Cases of Nil Compliance (i.e. No contact): 130,500
Cases where NRP is assessed at £0: 264,800 (approx 25%)
Average amount collected per case per month: £440

NRP Mothers: 50,400
Cases of NRP Mothers in arrears: 32,300 (62%)

681,000 on system where less than 52 nights overnight

allnewtaketwo Sat 04-Feb-12 14:32:07

"I can't help wondering WHY these women are so bitter though. If their relationship break up was amicable then there would be no need to be bitter surely? Makes me think there must be good reason for the bitterness and subsequent access denial"

toptramp that is terribly naive. You're assuming that women only behave badly when they have cause. Do you believe that when men behave badly it must be because of the woman? Do you really believe that women are inherently good and men are inherently bad.

fwiw, DH's ex left him for another man and is still bitter with contact 13 years on. No valid reason whatsoever. And whatever you'd like to believe, that's not so unusual.

piellabakewell Sat 04-Feb-12 16:27:22

My DP has a 3yo from a previous relationship. He has had to go to court to secure regular, guaranteed contact for his daughter. He has always paid CM, presently through CSA at his ex's insistence despite previously paying over the odds and never missing a payment. During his relationship with her, she was verbally, emotionally and physically abusive to him and succeeded in preventing her older two children from seeing their father.

Since I met him, she has hacked into his email account and read personal emails between him and I, set up an account in his name in order to email me a load of lies about him (on four occasions), obtained my phone number by opening post that went to her address and phoned and texted me until I bought a call blocker app, found out the name of my ex-husband and threatened to contact him to spread more lies about DP, attempted to steal £42000 from DP's business bank account (which would have crippled his business) and verbally abused him in person, by text and email regularly.

He was not a bad husband/partner, he was just unfortunate enough to get involved with, and have a child with, a complete nutcase.

AThingInYourLife Sat 04-Feb-12 16:34:24

Why did he get involved and have a child with a complete nutcase?

allnewtaketwo Sat 04-Feb-12 17:03:50

AThingInYourLife, do you ask the same question to women on mn with abusive exes? hmm. Or is it just men whose fault it is if the other parent turns out to be a 'nutcase'? hmm

JustLauraPalmer Sat 04-Feb-12 17:25:57

What makes me particularly angry about this topic are the situations in which the father has the DC 50% (or more) of the time but aren't technically the 'RP' and therefore doesn't pay any maintenance. These 'mothers' DEFINITELY do NOT deserve to receive maintenance. And in fact they definitely don't deserve the respected title NP. Too bad that the title has got to go to only one parent in joint-parenting situations.

piellabakewell Sat 04-Feb-12 17:26:49

I meant to add that his ex is a social worker hmm.

JustLauraPalmer Sat 04-Feb-12 17:28:03

*RP - not 'NP'

Sorry for the typo

AThingInYourLife Sat 04-Feb-12 17:37:19

If someone was blithely claiming that their ex was a "nutter" and that it was just "unfortunate" that they got involved with them and had a baby with them, I might well, yes.

"My ex is a unreasonable nutter" is a statement to be taken with a massive pinch of salt.

AThingInYourLife Sat 04-Feb-12 17:42:00

" These 'mothers' DEFINITELY do NOT deserve to receive maintenance."

So if a father and mother split care of the children 50-50, the mother becomes a "mother"?

She's not really a mother because she shares parenting with the children's father?


I suppose that's fair, since women are such vindictive bitches by nature, and all hmm

JustLauraPalmer Sat 04-Feb-12 18:03:16

The quotation marks were just a heated response to some of the other posters' use of quotations. I think that both parents are given the status of mother and father when they bring a child into the world, regardless of how many hours per week they actually parent. I just think that shared parenting 'single dads' deserve some respect.

And I certainly don't think that 'all mothers are vindictive bitches' - wouldn't lump myself nor most of the women I know into such a category!

duchesse Sat 04-Feb-12 18:19:33

ooh, piella, alarms bells ringing re your partner. Sorry. Women with very young children rarely leave their partner without very good cause imo and experience.

Spero Sat 04-Feb-12 18:40:18

Adamschic, exactly. The law can't make people be decent or reasonable if they are not. All it can do is change residence if one parent unreasonably buggers about refusing contact.

But I am looking forward eagerly to a change in the law which will makeit compulsory to share care of your children 50/50. Then hopefully my arsewipe ex will be forced to return to the UK to see his daughter rather more than his current few weeks a year.

Both mothers and fathers can be unpleasant and vindictive in the aftermath of relationship breakdowns. I would rather see time and airspace given to a group called 'children need parents'.

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