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Do I have a right to know where ex is taking sons on holiday?

(33 Posts)
martine2 Wed 27-Jul-11 16:50:31

Can you help? The ex is taking our 2 youngs sons on holiday for 8 days soon but refusing to say where? Do I have a right to know? He has parental responsibility for our youngest (aged 5) but not for our 7 year old (as law has changed since he was born in 2003). I am worried as I would like to know where they are going? I have concerns over the ex's ability to parent responsibly and he has lied to me in the past, for example he moved in with girlfriend last year and gave me a false address as to where our sons were staying every other weekend. I did not find out for nearly 10 months and that was by accident...I have numerous other examples...what are my rights as their mother to knowing where they are during this holiday time?
look forward to hearing any replies that will help me in my predicament!
thanks!
Martine2

Mutt Wed 27-Jul-11 16:58:37

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SirGin Wed 27-Jul-11 17:00:21

The only thing I'm sure about is that he needs your written permission to take the children out of the country.

I'm unclear about your rights in knowing his address, you'd think it was common decency, but I'm sure someone else will answer soon......

scurryfunge Wed 27-Jul-11 17:04:07

I think there have been similar threads to this recently and the consensus was (providing you have given permission for them to be taken out of the country) then you have no right to know where.

martine2 Wed 27-Jul-11 17:07:38

Thank you for that Mutt! I do feel like he is bullying me and I cant afford to go to Court.....I also have full responsiblility for my children and it was with horror that i realised that for 10 months our boys were staying in a completely different address and I had been lied to? Would like to find my legal position on this?
Martine2

niceguy2 Wed 27-Jul-11 17:10:53

Basically he doesn't have to tell you but common courtesy dictates that he should.

But then you have to ask yourself what would having that information really achieve? Not much.

You say you don't trust your ex to parent responsibly yet your kids are spending time with him and you "trust" him enough as long as he gives you an address. The logic sounds a bit flawed to me. You either trust him to keep your kids safe, or you do not. His abilities as a parent do not depend on which country he's in.

Finally let's say he says "OK, I am staying at this hotel". So what? What will you do? Call the hotel each day? book standby flights? I suspect the answer is nothing. In other words, the information itself is simply just a little bit of peace of mind for you.

If it's any consolation, my kids are going on holiday with their mum and the only information I have is the "North East". I could insist but as per above, what purpose does it really achieve?

martine2 Wed 27-Jul-11 17:12:57

I have not given permission for our sons to leave the country on the contrary as he has stolen our sons birth certificates. I have duplicates and have got the passport of our youngest son as there has been a threat of him emigrating with our sons....he cannot get a passport for our eldest as he does not have parental responsibility...

TheRealMBJ Wed 27-Jul-11 17:20:14

Hmm... I don't know anything about this situation but if I were you, given the previous threat of him emigrating with them, I'd get legs advice on this...

SirGin Wed 27-Jul-11 17:23:14

My XP is away now in Europe with dd, I asked for the address where they were staying and she gave me it willingly.

My argument ( to myself ) was , if God forbid something happened to them, and I phoned the police to say my XP and daughter had gone missing / not contacted me, I'd feel a complete idiot when the police said ' ok , where were they staying ' and I said ' I don't know '

TheRealMBJ Wed 27-Jul-11 17:24:59

Legal

Mutt Wed 27-Jul-11 17:27:18

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Newbabynewmum Wed 27-Jul-11 18:01:52

Will you not get legal aid? Most solicitors do your first hour free? If I were you I'd ring up some people near you and ask

GypsyMoth Wed 27-Jul-11 19:25:31

emigration is a long process theo.he's not likely to take the kids and move without the correct paperwork is he?

crispyseaweed Wed 27-Jul-11 20:11:14

Try CAB and i recking you ma¥ find that you , as mother do have right to know where your Ex is taking them...
Dont hand over passport until he tells you .....
Good luck, I hope you find out soon. xx

GypsyMoth Wed 27-Jul-11 20:22:39

i think you'll find court will be the only way to enforce anything here.

and isnt it a bit of a moot point anyway if he has no access to passports? HE could take YOU to court to enable a holiday and gain passports......which of course thengives you the oppurtunity to put your side across

allnewtaketwo Thu 28-Jul-11 08:30:00

I agree with niceguy. I can definitely see why you want to know, and I can imagine how frustrating it is not to know. But I agree it probably makes little difference in reality.

DH has this but the other way round. Ex refuses to tell him where, or when, she is bring the children on holiday. He finds out at the last minute if they are going away on holiday, and rarely knows where until they are back.

gillybean2 Thu 28-Jul-11 08:53:50

If you are concerned that your ex is going to take your dc abroad without permission and may not return them you should get yourself to court to prevent them being taken out of the country.

www.reunite.org/pages/parental_child_abduction_faq_s.asp

www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/when-things-go-wrong/child-abduction/

Are you sure this holiday is abroad? Can you try appealing to your ex by settling out clearly in a letter the issues. Something like:
"In order to agree to the dc going on holiday with you I need to know where you will be taking them. Please could you confirm if you are holidaying in the UK or if you intend to travel abroad. If you are travelling abroad you need my permission for this and I will only give this once you confirm where you are going, for how long, and that the purpose of this trip is for holiday only and the date you intend to return the dc to the UK/me. I would also appreciate a contact number or confirmation that your mobile number will be contactable while abroad."

If you have any inkling at all that he is taking them abroad and may not return them then please deal with it now before they go. It can take years to get your dc back if he does take them.

niceguy2 Thu 28-Jul-11 09:27:52

It doesn't sound right to me.

The original posts implies that OP wants to know where her kids are going and there's no mention of risk of non-return. The way it reads suggests if OP knew, she'd be ok with it.

Only later is there mention of the ex possibly not returning them. Personally I'd have thought that would be my first concern. Not a later one.

If I were OP's ex, if I were mindful of removing the kids for good then I would just lie through my teeth rather than annoy her by refusing to tell. What i mean is, it's probably a good thing he's refusing to say.

Lastly which country would the ex be able to emigrate to and find out if this country is a signatory to the Hague convention. Your rights are much stronger than if your ex moved to one which is not covered.

cestlavielife Thu 28-Jul-11 11:03:14

if his name is on birth cert as father he hasnt realy stolen tehm- as you can easily get certified copies.

you say h cant parent responsibly but what does that mean?

despite the fact he lied to you about the address he presumably returned them and cared for them adequately during that time. so going on holiday isnt much different - i agree it would be useful and common sense to be told where they going - not least so you can look on map and talk about it with them!

but there are different concerns you expres about abduction / "responsible parenting" etc which arent clear?

stripeywoollenhat Thu 28-Jul-11 11:11:11

surely if he hasn't got parental responsibility for your older son, he legally can't take the child anywhere without your permission? i understand that he could easily get parental responsibility, but as he hasn't got it right now, i mean.

and if there were any risk of him disappearing with them, i just wouldn't let them go.

allnewtaketwo Thu 28-Jul-11 11:16:38

I find it odd that the first post doesn't mention any issues with him not bringing them back, just an issue with the OP wanting information that the ex won't provide. Very strange to just introduce this risk later in the thread

martine2 Thu 28-Jul-11 12:53:11

Thanks all for the above...the ex cant take them out to the country as i have one of our sons passport and the ex cant get the other as he doesnt have parental responsibility. However I would still like to know where he intends to take them in this country? still not any clearer as to my legal position here?? perhaps i dont have a legal position?? I will make it clear to him that he cant have them for the holiday until i know where he intends to take them..just wondered if i could back this up with some legal bite???

Latemates Thu 28-Jul-11 13:06:13

Legally... He doesn't need to tell you. He could give the information to a third party in case of emergency. You could stop the holiday but do you really want to punish your kids byt preventing them having a holiday?
Would you be happy to give him all information and be stopped going on a holiday you have already booked and piad for if you refused and he stopped you.
Also does he have reasons for not wanting you to have this information such as you turning up their disrupting their holiday.
He is their father and ultimately you would be taking action if he was detrimental to their wellbeing as they do to their dads every other weekend I think he must be a reasonable father.

I agree that information should be open and shared but legally you don't have a leg to stand on and you are only punishing your kids by stopping the holiday. And when you speak to them during the holiday you will find out anyway as the kids will happily tell you where they are.

allnewtaketwo Thu 28-Jul-11 13:10:56

martine - I think it might be somewhat counterproductive to say that "he can't have them". To be frank, you don't own the children, and if there are no safety issues, then it does seem unfair to deny them a holiday with their father just because you're annoyed you don't know where it is.

Likewise it's extremely unfair of him not to tell you.

It sounds very much like there is a history of antagonism here

gillybean2 Thu 28-Jul-11 14:35:45

Legally he can't take them abroad unless he has permission of all those with PR. So you can stop it by refusing permission, but you would have to go to court to get a stop on ports etc. A judge may refuse to stop the holiday if you don't have good reason if they believe it to be good for the dc to go, ie they would only stop it if they believed he would abscond with the dc or that the dc would be put in danger or their wellbeing is at risk.

He could equally go to court and ask them to order you to make them available for the holiday and if you prevented it after this you may be liable for the cost of the cancelled holiday.

Btw he could probably easily get a replacement passport for both dc. He simply says they have been lost. The passport office probably don't know that you are separated or that he doesn't have PR...

Are you even certain this holiday is going to be abroad?

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