Is South Africa as bad/good as people say?

[Thiswaytobermuda]

My work has suggested I might like to take up a permanent position in SA. It would be Johannesburg, and moving costs would be included. We wouldn't be at the top end of income but it would be reasonable, and we could afford some domestic help, although I'm not sure we could then cover private schools, unless they are cheap. We have children and I am sure they will slot fine into school generally but I am particularly worried about where the reception year DC would fit in as I understand school starts at 6 or 7 only. Do people really feel very unsafe driving around or being alone in a house at night (my partner would be travelling sometimes to keep his job going alongside mine)? Are services likely to go downhill in the next few years? (I have previously lived in Cape Town for a while and another African country but long ago and without children. Found some aspects like electricity black outs or no water for a day frustrating but manageable, but also never felt unsafe.) Will I spend all my time worrying about our safety and not enjoy what I think SA does offer families, like weather and outdoor pursuits, cheap food,and local travel?. What may I miss so much from the UK that I would regret the move?

[Thiswaytobermuda]

I should add that the idea of giving each child their own bedroom, and having a pool, is very appealing, although I see those are the most superficial of reasons to move.

[flumpybear]

It's a pretty dangerous place to live though isn't it?! Not sure a bedroom each and pool quite weighs up to safety IMO

[Theknacktoflying]

SA is headingfor junk status
Costs of living are huge and go up daily
You live behind barbed wire, security fences and everywhere is in lock down.
There is a huge amount of poverty and poor
Don’t rely on any public services - health services are paid for privately (for £££)
There is almost no continuous water, electricity services - always power outtages
Travelling around JHB is on dangerous, over crowded and small roads ...

DON’T GO ...

[lubeybooby]

No chance. One family I know is desperately trying to relocate to new zealand or the uk, whichever can take them soonest.

[EssentialHummus]

I grew up there. It is dangerous by UK standards - you’ll likely live in a gates community, and driving around at night is a higher-risk activity (so you tend to slow down rather than stop at traffic lights). Lots of ferrying children around by car - it’s unusual to walk around on the streets. Malls are common for shopping. The government isn’t hugely competent, and there’s a lot of corruption.

There are many good things about living there, but I’d only make a “permanent” move if I kept a UK property and had an exit plan.

[EssentialHummus]

*gates

[EssentialHummus]

Ffs - gateD

[SellFridges]

I have no personak experience, but two members of staff in my department have recently relocated. They are South African (although both hold British passports through ancestry) and could no longer face bringing up their children in the country. They talk of being worried that their houses would be burgled by men with guns who would rape their wives and children. They have also mentioned positive discrimination in relation to their children not being able to get jobs but I really don’t know much about that.

Many years ago I worked with a a South African girl who returned home with her partner. He was shot dead on the drive shortly after they moved back.

I’m sure it can’t be all doom and gloom so I’d love to hear positive stories.

[crimsonlake]

I have a few friends who have left SA because of the crime, yes it is a beautiful country but it would be like living in a prison. I have holidayed there and stayed in friend's homes. Lovely houses with pools, however bars on the doors and windows, gated communities with 24 hr security driving around. No freedom to walk around safely on your own, on constant alert as you are driving around. Government and the police corrupt. Google SA and check out the crime rates, download local newspapers.

[Russell19]

So I went on my honeymoon to SA. Loved it and had an amazing time but I never felt safe. Our hotels had guards and taxi drivers constantly told us to hide bags/phones when in the back of Taxis incase we were hijacked. Locals talked of government corruption and on hearing our accents were quick to tell us they were desperate to move to the UK. You must know all this though if you have lived in Cape town. Can't help you with anything school wise sorry.

[Espoleta]

I’m South African but live in the uk and would go back in a heart beat if it wasn’t for other circumstances.
Yes there is crime- but there’s crime everywhere (look at knife crime in the uk). But it’s worst than most.

I think my main worry would be about not having the funds to send your kids private. There is are model c school which you pay fees for which employees additional teachers which you should look at. These are traditionally white schools during apartheid.

I would think carefully about the education choices as that will also help shape where you will live.

There are complex social and economic issues at play which many people don’t grasp which I believe are the reason for crimes. The huge gap between rich and poor takes a long time to get use too.
As a privilege person you will encounter less crime that the average person.
Oh and yes there is still load shedding bits it’s better but Cape Town still doesn’t have enough water in the long run.

[ideasofmarch]

I know four different South African people, they have all moved to the UK because of how dangerous it is out there. One had their car hijacked at gunpoint, another had their house and land taken over, again at gunpoint, the other two had just had enough.

[Thiswaytobermuda]

Thanks for responses so far. I know from an adult perspective that one has to be careful, that houses have walls or fences around them and that it is constrictive in that way. I saw this living in Cape Town for a bit. It's what it is. So in theory I can accept that we will have to drive to places and that we can't chat to our neighbour over the fence as it will be topped with razor wire or something. It won't be the UK.
I do fret about the stats though. Really want to know if I am likely to turn anxious for the children? Besides worrying about crime, and if you're lucky enough to have a reasonable income, it seems like an enjoyable life though?
Do South Africans who are leaving not also want to leave because they have political baggage?
I think I'm either naive or a realist in thinking that if the country was listed as in junk status economically, it would not necessarily impact our life in such a way that we need to move back home immediately? We may rent out our house instead of selling it, but realistically we would be there while the DCs grow up. At least five or six years maybe.
If anyone has any UK or European friends living with children in SA, please could you ask them to comment if they are willing?

[Thiswaytobermuda]

Crosspost Espoleta. Thank you for the note about schools. Are the private schools very selective or oversubscribed, or is it easy to get a place as long as you can pay?

[EssentialHummus]

Do South Africans who are leaving not also want to leave because they have political baggage?

I was 23 when I left for the UK. Not much political baggage (though some awareness of my luck as a middle-class white SAfrican). I just felt that building a career there would be building it on shaky foundations, and that at some point I would be the victim of crime. The year before I left a friend and her family were tied up and robbed at gunpoint. One robber asked my friend how old she was. She lied and said 14. He replied "Too young" before turning away. (You can guess the subtext.)

A few good private JHB schools for you to look at fees etc:
www.stithian.com/
www.redhill.co.za/
www.stjohnscollege.co.za/
www.roedeanschool.co.za/

[Thiswaytobermuda]

Sorry about your friend, hummus.
We all have political baggage and aspirations. Even in the UK I warrant. NI is a world away from England too. I guess being a foreigner in a country helps in that respect. Hope it has been a good move for you here.

[Thiswaytobermuda]

Thanks for the school links too!

[Theknacktoflying]

Those schools listed are some of the most expensive schools ...

Curriculum at school is also very african - there is a big push to africanise education and standards are slipping. There are a few schools offering a cambridge/AS level exams but finding money for fees over and above the living costs is huge. Many don’t make ends meet.

My nieces and nephews all have expensive school education and are battling to find any jobs.

Food is expensive and living in Joburg condemns you to spending many hours in the car ....

[Eminado]

Theknack
What do you mean by this, please?
“Curriculum at school is also very african - there is a big push to africanise education and standards are slipping.”

[JingsMahBucket]

Curriculum at school is also very african - there is a big push to africanise education and standards are slipping.

Wow...

[Eminado]

Thanks Jing - thought it was just me.

[Tensixtysix]

If you are comfortable with the horrific social poverty of the 'blacks' and the fact that most 'whites' still call the locals nasty names and treat them like sh!t, then go right ahead and feel like a millionaire in comparison.
I went twice and never again. Don't get me wrong, they are nice people and a lovely country. BUT it's so poverty stricken it's disgusting!
Our friends managed 5 years out there until things got too scary.
Also there are hardly any jobs for even white people.

[JingsMahBucket]

@Eminado nah it wasn’t just you. That was an obvious dog whistle heard around the world.

[Thiswaytobermuda]

Not meant this to be an aggressive or regressive thread.

[crosstalk]

You could reinterpret Jings that if you intend to move back, the sort of eg history taught ("Africanised") will not fit in with a move back to Europe simply in what areas are covered. However the huge new moves in African history, a lot from Cape Town and Wits, are supporting the world wide appreciation of eg Timbuktu and other major centres of philosophy, science and religion. That would be very interesting for older children. However if standards are slipping (and the govt is corrupt and you can check funding for public education- Madiba would be appalled) I would seriously consider the education and enjoyment for your children. And when people talk about South Africans leaving with political baggage, that's pretty well exclusively white ... we're not in the days of Makeba when talented people of colour left to have a career, or fled to escape apartheid.

I'm not sure I'd want to live in a gated community in the UK, NI, USA or RSA.