Moving to NY - is it possible on average wage?

[camberwellred]

Hello, it's possible that my dh may apply for a job within the same company but in NY, he has also been given a green light for this by the NY MD who has said she'll back his application.

The thing is we would be living solely off his income - in the UK it's 35k, I'm unsure as to how much it would be in NY but I don't thinki it will be wildly different. We have two children one 8yo & one 3yo who attends nursery and gets her free 2.5 hours a week, within this time I work p/t bringing in roughly the same but per annum, maybe a bit less.

The posts that I've read on this seem to refer to people on a much higher income than us which makes me a bit worried - we'd need public schools, a 3 bed apartment and very open as to where we'd live but ideally not further than a 1 hour commute (ideally) Our house in the UK would rent for approx £1600 pcm.

Could anyone provide an insight into whether this would be actually be possible and what kind of lifestyle would be available for this?

Thank you in advance!

[dreamingbohemian]

Would you be able to work on his visa?
Do you have savings for the move or would the company pay relocation?

I know what you mean, most expat threads seem to involve crazy amounts of money, but there are some of us moving around on normal salaries too. New York is crazy expensive but plenty of normal people live there too, just like London. I think the difference is that you have to bank on a lot of extra expenses, like health care, and savings because there is no social safety net.

So yes, you probably could manage if you really had to, but the question is what quality of life would you have and is it worth it to go. Imagine you had an American friend living in New York who wanted to move to London, but the only way it would work is if they rented a tiny place in a grim part of Zone 6 with crappy schools. Would you recommend they go, just because it's still London?

If you can both work, it would probably be okay, have a look at Queens for example. Realistically you are probably talking about a 2bed though.

[pupsiecola]

Where in the UK are you OP? Not clear if you are in London or not...

[camberwellred]

Really good points dreamingbohemian... I think because he's moving within the company he'd get a specific visa for transferring & I'd be included & would be able to work.

I'm not sure about the relocation package but am assuming it would be v basic.

Healthcare scares the living daylights out of me. Dh would be covered but that still leaves the remaining 3 of usI'd have to apply for work out there so a) am unsure about my opportunities & earning potential & b) how many hours I'd have to work for us to be ok.

Currently I'm part time & earn quite a lot whilst still picking my children up from school, dropping off, basically having a lot of time with them.

I have spent time out there before & have a real affinity with the place, I've always wanted to go back as a family.

pupsiecola we live in Brighton currently & love it but also keen to travel before my eldest goes to secondary ( 3 years) we both lived in London for several years prior.

My other concerns are schools- what are public school like?

[camberwellred]

Oh & apologies for typos/haste i am writing this one handed, whilst simultaneously trying to get my 3 yo to sleep!

[dreamingbohemian]

He needs to get a health insurance package with full family coverage, it will be a nightmare trying to get something on your own. This should be standard.

Public schools are the same as anywhere, some good, some bad. This would be my primary worry tbh, you may very well find an affordable place to live but that could be in part because the schools are rotten. You will need to do a ton of research once you find out realistically what your total income will be.

Do you want to say what area you work in?

Keep in mind that Americans do not generally have very much holiday time at all so you can't, for example, cover all the school holidays with annual leave. See if your husband can negotiate UK holiday provision though.

[Want2bSupermum]

Look on glass door.com for salaries in that job. Also look at weehawken, NJ. It has a prek program and a top rated school system. A 3bed is about $2k a month.

On gbp35k you need to have the ability to work. Go on glass door to see what you could hope to earn. Make sure your DH gets and L1 or L2 visa.

[nooka]

I would have thought he'd most likely get an L2 visa, which means you will be able to work, but you'll probably have to apply for your visa once you are in the States and it will take a few months to arrive. Definitely worth investigating whether your skills would be in demand. Also if there is anything you can do from a distance at home (insurance really).

I agree with dreamingbohemian it would be very odd if you and your children are not covered under your dh's work scheme. You absolutely need to get the details because it's likely he may have to pay a contribution and there may well be co-pay fees/limitations too. It's something you need to know.

In the States schools are usually funded by local taxes, so there is a fairly direct correlation between the wealth of the area and the quality of the schools, they are also fairly strictly admission by catchment area. This is useful for newcomers as you won't have an issue with your 8yr old getting a place, but means you have to get the location right.

Financially that also means allowing for local taxes as well as state ones (I think there's another - city or maybe national, I can't remember which).

Other things to bear in mind are that you may have to put hefty down payments on things as you'll have no credit history, allow for agent fees and repair costs for your UK house and of course the cost of the move itself. Will your dh's company provide any relocation funds for you? When we moved dh's company said that as he'd asked to move they'd only give him the bare minimum.

[LikeABadSethRogenMovie]

Honestly? I wouldn't come here with a family on a $50-60k a year salary. Good schools=High taxes. And good schools = competitive parents willing to pay a sack load of cash on out of school activities. NY and the Tri-State is not an area that feels good to be 'poor'.

[Want2bSupermum]

Check the salary and package first. Without knowing exactly what is offered you can't make a decision.

Some jobs here pay a lot more than they do in the UK. You might find your DH is offered $75-100k. Get all the facts and then make a decision.

[camberwellred]

dreamingbohemian it's possible that we can negotiate better terms should dp get the job, therefore all advice given here is really helpful as it paints a picture of what we should be reasonably aiming for.

I wonder whether as it's a UK company they are offering less in terms of medical care & relocation support than a US company? We'll hopefully find out about the relocation package today but tbh it wouldn't surprise me if there wasn't one!

I work within the arts and communication with experience working in museums, galleries, arts/sales & PR. I studied for a few months in Brooklyn and still have a pretty good network of people there, plus a very good friend who I think would be able to fix me up with something. Want2bSupermum I would worry that NJ whilst affordable in terms of rent, would not provide the same scope. Ideally (I'm stressing ideally here!) I think Brooklyn would be a great place for us to be.

Can anyone advise on the tax you have to pay? I had a brief look on wiki last night but it seemed really drawn out with no specific answer...

Also does anyone know when my 3yo (she'll be 4 in Sept) would be entitled to free childcare/the starting age for school?

[dreamingbohemian]

I'm sorry but a 3bed in Brooklyn with decent schools on 40-50K is not going to happen. The nice parts of Brooklyn are insanely expensive and you will have a tough time getting a flat with no credit history as there is so much competition. I can understand not wanting to do NJ but perhaps look at Queens instead?

I think it is possible to be an expat on a normal wage but then you do have to be realistic about what you can get. You wouldn't expect to move to London on 35K and get a 3bed in Zone 2, it's the same idea.

Want is right though, 35K in the UK might translate to 75K in the US, in which case a 2bed in Brooklyn might work.

On the plus side, you work in a great field for NY, however you will be competing with a lot of people willing to work for peanuts (those are popular areas for trust fund kids).

Do NOT move if there's no relocation help whatsoever! I understand not everyone can get the full bells and whistles but they should at least help pay the moving costs.

The insurance question is key, you will probably all be covered but for example it could cost $800 a month, that will make the whole scenario less feasible.

For taxes you pay federal, state and local taxes -- federal is less than in the UK but when you add everything up it's probably the same.

Free kindergarten starts at 5, there is no free childcare. Or actually, I think they started offering free pre-K at 4, but they don't have enough spaces for everyone yet.

I don't want to be a downer because I don't think only rich people should be expats -- we've relocated twice on low incomes. The difference is we went to European countries with lots of social benefits and cheaper living costs. NY is a big shock not only because it's so expensive but because you have to pay for so many more things than you're used to.

So I wouldn't rule it out but see what the salary and insurance costs will be, then you can make a more realistic judgment.
If it doesn't work out, come to Berlin, it's like old school New York and you can still afford to live downtown :)

[camberwellred]

dreamingbohemian thank you, a much welcomed dose of reality and sage advice.

We're in such early stages so should hear more over the next couple of days which will determine whether it is at all possible. Free pre-K has started up but I'm sure availability is sparse. I wonder if it's much the same as the UK for schools etc or harder?...

Just to clarify - the annual income would be $55k solely from dp, plus approx $800 pcm for the profit from our house rental in the UK - your estimation above was based on a 40-50k income per annum - does the above equally obliterate our chances in your opinion?

I'd be really keen to work as soon as possible. I've done my time working for peanuts & think I have enough experience which would enable me to get something half decent. However the thought of living in a neighbourhood spewing trust fund arty kids makes me queasy...

Berlin would be great actually but how easy would it be for both of us work wise as we don't speak German?

FYI we speak no other languages (hence another appealing factor about NY)

[camberwellred]

AlpacaMyBags thank you that's really helpful to know - I don't think I'd be able to work for the first few months. Ack so not for $50k basically...

[Earlybird]

Fwiw, as a single person I moved from London to New York in 1986 on a salary of $50k. I thought it sounded a good amount, but once 'on the ground' quickly realised I needed a roommate to survive financially. Eventually I moved to New Jersey and commuted in to work.

No way should you consider moving for a salary of $55k. Not for a minute.

[FlipFantasia]

My SIL lives in Bed-Stuy (priced out of nicer Fort Greene) and is married with a 2 year old. Household income about $55k (fluctuates as she is freelance in the art world, her husband is a sound engineer so also picks up extra weekend freelance work when he can).

They have a '2 bed' - top floor of a brownstone (4 flights of stairs) and the weird layout that is typical of brownstones ie kitchen is off their bedroom and their 2 year's bedroom is tiny and they sleep in a loft bed so as to have more living space. They pay $1500/month and live in fear of their landlord raising their rent (rents of $3k plus are more the norm, even though they regularly have shootings etc in their neighbourhood).

They live very precariously - they bike everywhere, cook everything from scratch (they shop at the Park Slope coop but also do things like get free food when trader Joe's hands out food about to expire etc), never eat out, cannot afford any travel (eg you could never afford to visit the UK), birthday and Christmas gifts usually include necessities like clothes and shoes (and his parents are very generous). Very frugal but they have a small nest egg (the financial crash hit the art world hard, work is much harder for her to come by and the nest egg is for if either or both lost their jobs).

They have decided they cannot afford another child. They are late thirties/early forties (with no pensions) and are more like early 20s financially. He suffers badly with anxiety so moving is their last choice (he would need to up his meds to handle it).

School wise, in NYC you are zoned for a school but can go anywhere. You have to be super organised and aggressive to get into the best public (state) schools. It is stressful and you may have to take what you get depending on what time of year you move (best ones may be full). I don't know about the pre-k as friends are either past it or have 2-3 year olds. But your kids may be at school a bus ride away, eating into your working time (eg hour round trip there and another hour at pick up for a 8.30-2.30 day).

Check out less trendy areas like Kensington (multi family homes but not brownstones) but then the commute is slow. Think about whether you could do a 2 bed (bunk beds and a pull out trundle for the youngest?). Parts of NJ (like Weehawken) are right across the Hudson so don't write NJ off (the hipsters are moving as they can't afford nice Brooklyn!). Look up the metro-North line. Think about Staten Island or Queens or the Bronx.

I have lived in London and Brighton and NYC puts them in the shade for rent. We now live in NJ (just had our third) as living in NYC was too expensive (and we had a v generous relo package and my DH earns very good money in IT for a bank on Wall St and I work freelance from home).

My sis lives in Berlin and it is amazing. In fact, I wish I could magic my Brooklyn SIL over there as it is so much more affordable and family friendly! My nieces (7 and 10) have an amazing bilingual, free education at Nelson Mandela school and are so much more independent than in London. If you could choose, I'd recommend Berlin over Brooklyn in a heart beat!

[FlipFantasia]

Sorry, just seen you have 2 kids! Then a two bed is what you would look for. Space will be tiny, but that is NYC.

And do not consider this without a package involving the following: flights for all of you, at least a month of temporary accommodation while you flat hunt, rental down payment and realtor fee paid (that will be thousands alone) and an allowance for either shipping or kitting out new furniture and appliances.

Also one of the things that I hate about my friends' Brooklyn flats is that none have washing machines or dryers so doing laundry is a chore. A small thing but definitely a big difference from the UK!

[FarFromTheMaddingCrowd]

Hi OP.

We relocated from NW London to NJ a couple of years ago. I am still recovering from the trauma of researching and organizing our move , but when you have further details of the salary & offer I'll happily chip in with any information/detail that you may need.

If it's a company transfer your OH will most likely get either an L1-A or L1-B visa. As dependents, both yourself and children will get L2's. I would also agree with some of the PP's that $55k is a very low salary for NY. This is the salary that my DH's company start their entry level graduates on, the majority of which are either still at home or renting a room in a shared apartment.

A couple of points though:

You mentioned letting your UK property and likely profit. Just be aware that the rent you receive is classed as income. There are certain deductions that you can make from this, but you cannot deduct your full mortgage payment (if you have a mortgage, that is). You will only be able to deduct the mortgage interest. There is a bit more to it, like tax due in the US, but not worth going into too much detail at the moment.

Ensure that any offer includes a repatriation package. Unlike an H1-B visa, there is no onus on the company to pay for your flights back to the UK.

Good luck!

[merrygoround51]

I wouldn't move to NY on a $55k salary. You would have to consider what the advantages are over your current situation and so far 'living in new york' seems to be the only advantage and you really are not going to have a great experience on that kind of money. It can be done of course but you wont be experiencing the New York of the movies and to be honest I would rather be in Brighton living comfortably than the periphery of NY living frugally.

Sorry I cant be more positive but it really is hard for lower earners - I lived there pre children and found it difficult to survive!

[camberwellred]

Hello,

Thank you for all your really helpful messages. I'm getting a very strong indication that 55k is too low (grin)

Sleep depravation is making it quite difficult to carry out research and it's such early stages...

My dp is going to ask for $80k & an expanded role, plus his boss has also floated the idea of a sabbatical. They seem to be very keen in supporting his application and possibly getting him out there, so discussions are taking place and suggestions as to how it can be achieved.

He's having a meeting tomorrow am to chat over more specifics, plus we're waiting to hear back from the NY office regarding which visas we'll need & any other advice they can offer.

Depending on the outcome (and some SLEEP!) I'll start checking out more locations etc.

FarFromTheMaddingCrowd your comments about rental income in the UK looks very problematic, also good point about a repatriation package.

Ack.

[FarFromTheMaddingCrowd]

OP- I didn't mean to startle you with the rental income information! It's more to do with being taxed on the profit.

On the UK side - If you are renting your house out for £1600 p/m, this would give you an income of £19200 p/a. From this figure you can make various deductions. If you own the property jointly, (check your legal paperwork) then you split the profit 50/50. If the amount is under your tax free allowance then you won't be liable for any UK tax. This is assuming you do not have any other UK income. HMRC have all of the information for this.

The same thing applies on the US side. It's a bit more complicated as you can also deduct depreciation which will reduce your profit further. Any remaining amount would be subject to US tax. However, the amount due will depend on a number of factors (how you file your taxes, when you arrived in the US etc.), so it's difficult to say how much tax would be due - it's just something to be aware of.

FWIW - We are letting our house out too and I had estimated the amount of tax due for 2013. However, due to the way we filed our US taxes and the UK tax credits we had accumulated, we ended up not owing any tax on our house for 2013. I'm currently getting our information together for our 2014 tax return and expect to have to pay some tax on the profit this year.

More than happy to help with any questions that you may have.

[Want2bSupermum]

More to the point I'd put your home in the UK in your name with rental income paid to you. It should be under the allowance in the UK. In the US you're taxed as a married couple filing jointly so the rental income won't really affect your income here.

[Want2bSupermum]

Sorry it's late! I meant to say the rental income from the UK won't be taxed here by much.

[camberwellred]

Bit of an update - Dp is now applying for a bigger role (company are encouraging) of $90k. We now have this weekend to start research, tbh I don't know where to start! Also healthcare would only be provided for dp, not myself or 3 children... so I have no idea how much that is, plus dental care, if that's separate?

We'll definitely look into Weehawken- Want2bSupermum and FarFromTheMaddingCrowd what it like, is it less full on than Brooklyn? do the schools have more green space/outside sports etc? Where's the nearest beach etc? Also any idea of how long the commute is to Wall St?

Trying so hard to not get excited as it's still such a long shot...

[Want2bSupermum]

just wondering if you are married because I see you use DP?

If not married you need to do it to be able to get the visa and this might be why you are not covered by his plan. I don't know of a company that only offers health insurance to individuals.