Sydney - very mixed reaction from family

[SeymoreButts]

DH has been offered a job in his company's Sydney office, it will be a substantial promotion for him if he takes it up. We have 2 DCs (DD 5 and DS 2) and I'm not working at the moment. I am applying to medical schools in London, if we move to Sydney that will have to wait until we have permanent residency.

My mum is understandably upset and really doesn't want us to go. She thinks I will be lonely and cut off from support of family and that my career will suffer from having to wait to start training. DH's brother is furious that we are even considering it, he has called us selfish and naive! My sister has tried to be positive and says she is looking forward to visiting. But her DD is very close to my DCs, they are like siblings really. DH's Dad thinks its a great opportunity career wise, but doesn't want us to tell DH's Mum until it is all finalised because she will be devastated.

The DCs are very close to their grandparents and I think we will all be upset, but it seems like a great opportunity for us as a family. On one hand I think it could be a lovely place for the DCs to grow up, and the promotion for DH means more security for us, but I am worried about the effect it will have on the rest of our family.

[exexpat]

Are you talking about it as a permanent move from the start, or as a 2-4 year thing with the possibility to extend? I can understand that if it has come a bit out of the blue, the family might all be a bit upset about the idea of you disappearing permanently to the other side of the world. When DH and I first moved to the other side of the world, it was meant to be for two years, which was fairly digestible for the family, but then it got extended, and extended...

I think you really have to put the family's reaction to one side and work out whether it is a good move for you, DH and the children - I presume you wouldn't normally let family pressure influence major life decisions, like who to marry or whether to have children, and the decision to emigrate is pretty similar, I think. Then if you decide to go, you just have to start talking about visits (you back to the UK, them to Australia - great place for a holiday!), staying in touch with skype and emails etc, and they should eventually come round - unless they are the kind of family who expect to have you at their beck and call all the time.

Personally I would love to move back to Sydney (I lived there for a year, and have just come back from a visit), and I'd say that if the job is good then the lifestyle can be brilliant - but you need to make sure that pay and conditions measure up well by local standards - if you just convert to sterling at the moment it may sound good, but the aussie dollar is very strong at the moment, so the cost of living also seems very high if you think in sterling terms.

[Kiwinyc]

i'd agree with exexpat. You don't need anybodys permission to do this, just assess it as whether it the right opportunity for you, your DH, your children.

But tbh - I'd be biting your arm off for an opportunity to live and work in Sydney again. DH and I lived there for 3 yrs before getting married and having kids and the lifestyle is great. Its just as good with a family. But make sure your DH will be compensated well enough for you to have a good lifestyle, without taking him away from you or your children, and to provide additional childcare support when you may need it i.e. babysitting, Nursery etc.

My main concern would be losing family support for this sort of thing initially, (if you have it now, if not you're not losing anything) until you build a new local support network.

I must say i would be dismayed at the unhelpful reaction of your BIL - he's the one being selfish imo!

[midoriway]

Push your husband's employer to sponsor him and the family for a permanent employer sponsored visa asap. Don't let them fob you off with a 457 visa for too long. The sooner you get your permanent visa, the sooner you can study at local student fees, and the sooner you and the family will feel settled.

[ninedragons]

Have you been in touch with the local universities?

Medicine as an undergraduate degree is hugely, massively oversubscribed (you would have to have scored 98-100% on every subject at school), but the universities now offer it as a graduate degree following a BSc.

It's also worth checking whether you would have to do a year or two in a remote area as part of your training. I have a friend who is an obstetrician and she had to spend a year WAY out in the bush - I don't think you get to choose to stay in Sydney.

I'm not saying at all that it's impossible that you would get into Sydney Uni or UNSW to read medicine, just that you should check that you are a viable candidate before you make a decision.

[SeymoreButts]

Thanks Ladies!

exexpat I have been saying it might be for the long term, perhaps I should back off from that. It was always going to be a difficult decision, but not going with my mum's blessing in particular would be awful. It's not definite at the moment though!

Kiwinyc I know! I was shocked, especially as BIL has spent years travelling around Oz and NZ himself, although he's not married or a father yet. I am dreading MIL's reaction now! DH's employer hasn't put together his package yet, when they start talking money we can make a decision. I've got no idea what's enough to live comfortably in Sydney though, and how much we will need to cover the move.

midoriway I didn't know it was down to the employer (I know very little about visas at the moment). I thought we could just apply for perm residency after 2 years. Could we do it sooner?

ninedragons I've checked with Sydney uni, will get in touch with UNSW! Luckily I have a BSc in maths from a well known UK uni (Sydney uni's admissions tutors should know it) and because I was too poor to go out drinking I averaged 90% in my degree. The problem I have though is that Aussie unis ask for degrees less than 10 years old from medicine applicants. My degree is 7 years old now so the clock is ticking. I didn't know that clinical placements could be quite far flung though, I will look into that as well.

[ninedragons]

Sydney Uni is FAR better than UNSW

Macquarie Uni is also in metropolitan Sydney but I don't know if they have a medical school. Wollongong Uni is very well respected and it may not be out of the question to find somewhere on the rail line that would be commutable to Sydney for your DH and for you down to Wollongong. I know a few people who went to WU as mature and foreign students and it's got a reputation as being well set up for that kind of student. The south coast towns have the virtue of being a lot cheaper than Sydney - we could sell our 2BR flat in Sydney and live in a surf-front palace down there, and I fantasise about it regularly.

Good luck!

[ninedragons]

I gather from my friend that the remote placements are encouraged to give everyone a taste of things like indigenous healthcare (abysmally poor - I honestly think it's Australia's greatest shame).

If your DH has the sort of seniority to negotiate full overseas fees for you included in his package, jump at it. As in the UK, foreign fee-paying students get whisked past the velvet rope, to a certain extent.

[Kiwinyc]

The company should pay relocation/shipping expenses and house you and pay for a rental car for an intial settling in period and also help you find accommodation via a local relocation specialist who can advise on suitable areas to live if you don't have any idea yourself. They should also take care of all visa requirements, and the package should include health insurance and possibly school fees, maybe even cover the cost of fly-backs to the UK, which could can also use to fly relatives out to visit. Its a long way, but its also very easy to get to Sydney, its the major hub and everybody flies there, fares remain competitive because theres so much competition between the airlines.

Maybe ask those in the Australia threads about what a typical relocation package to Sydney includes, and how much HHI they think you need to live comfortably - they will probably scare you with tales about how strong the Aussie dollar is at the moment (which is true, but only an issue initially) and how expensive everything is (I think thats relative, people go on about how expensive NZ but it really isn't at all!) but as long as your DH is earning a decent wage it'll be fine. Being sponsored to move by a company is far, far advantageous to moving and setting up on your own which is what most people have to do. The only risk is if you absolutely hate it. I think its a rare, and incredible opportunity if you're up for it!

(And it sounds like your BIL has sour grapes!)

[midoriway]

Seymore- There is no automatic "you have been here for x amount of years" provision for permanent residency in Australia. Some people have been in Australia, legally for 10, 15 years, and are still not entitled to a permanent visa.

To be granted a visa, you need to meet certain criteria. Without understanding your situation in depth, I presume that your husband will be granted a 457 temporary employer sponsored visa. This is, as you might guess, a visa that is granted to your husband (primary applicant) and his family (secondary applicant) on the basis that an employer has agreed to sponsor him temporarily. There is another visa, where the employer agrees to sponsor a person permanently. This is called the employer nomination scheme visa subclass 856. There is no qualifying time needed for his visa, although the application is slightly easier after 2 years on a temporary sponsored visa for some people, depending on their circumstances.

Australian visa's are complicated and difficult to navigate. Do your own research, or find a migration agent who can advise you.

best starting point is here

www.immi.gov.au/

Even high level white collar executives can get screwed over by visa rules and difficult employers. Forewarned is fore armed etc, etc.

[SeymoreButts]

ninedragons thanks, this is all very useful info. I will have a look at Wollongong too. I have been thinking about living within commuting distance. We are quite rural at the moment so I'm bit apprehensive about an inner city apartment.

Kiwinyc I will have a nosey through the Aussie threads, I didn't know that they could cover flybacks etc. We've been waiting a few days now to find out exactly what package they are going to offer, fingers crossed!

Thanks midoriway that is good to know, I've had a look and DH's job is on the skills shortage list, so in theory he could get permanent sponsorship but I doubt his employer will take that approach initially. I will swat up on visas now...

I am starting to feel quite excited!!

[ninedragons]

Hop on realestate.com.au and check out Thirroul, Kiama and surrounding towns. There are some stunningly beautiful little towns. Not sure which ones are an easy commute to Sydney but it should be fairly simple to find out.

[midoriway]

Don't forget, if he is on the permanent list, he might be able to apply for a permanent visa in his own right without the support of the company. Many people do this, go out on a 457 visa sponsored by employer. At the same time make an application for 175 or a 176 visa (skilled independent visa) by themselves. You have a ton of options, probably more than husband's employer HR dept are explaining to you.

[willow5]

Hi,
We're in Sydney on a 457 visa, my partner is on a good wage but it doesn't go far in the eastern suburbs. On a 457 you have to pay for public (state) schools (relevant to your 5 yr old) and the fee in NSW is $4500 per year, you don't get a child care rebate so pay full price for daycare (residents get about 50% back, so it's not advantageous financially for me to go back to work) there's things I'm discovering all the time that we can't do, like get a parking permit! You can apply for LAFHA though which makes a difference. My partners company will sponser residency, but it is expensive (we've been quoted $6-8K with agents fees). We're really struggling to make ends meet which is a shame when we live in such a great place, but I'm still happy to be here

[RossettiConfetti]

Hi, just another point of view from another expat (I've lived in many countries around the world, and have close family in Australia who I've visited a couple of times).

Apologies to put a downer on it, but you seem to be welcoming opinions, and I only write mine thinking it might be useful to you to have more of an objective view...

I think there was a reason why, when people emigrated 100 years ago, their family in the UK held funerals for them. I understand that emotive example because, despite the relative ease and expense of travel, phone, email and skype, moving to the other side of the world effectively will end a meaningful relationship with your friends and family left in the UK. Your children will probably not have as close or meaningful relationship with their grandparents, and you with your parents.

You can't expect any visits at all. You can't expect people to pay thousands (we just paid nearly 3k for 3 people return flights to Australia on cheapest tickets available) and use up their annual holiday allowance to see you. However, because they love you and Australia is interesting, they probably will come. But maybe not as often as you anticipate, or they say they will in the initial excitement of early plans. Any visit is a bonus. And the onus to keep the relationships going, by phone or visiting, is all on you, as the person who moved away.

Skype can be very frustrating and often freezes/cuts out. Your DH may or may not be proactive in keeping up family links (making chatty calls, putting together packages of the childrens' artwork, photos of your new life, etc, remembering birthdays, planning the next trip back to the UK - which can take as much logistical planning as a Royal visit sometimes). If not it will fall to you, and if the family relationships aren't to erode too much, you have to do all this tenfold. Not to mention the guilt from your Mum, mother-in-law, who if they visit, may spend much of the visit reminding you how much they miss you and the grandchildren and taking poignant photos to cling to.

Also I think Australia is currently as expensive as the UK (especially the cities), and not the promised land some people (not you) can sometimes think it is. The outdoors life, for example, is no better than many many places in the UK. There are plenty of threads on here about the negatives of Oz...

Clearly I'm biased and cynical, as much of what I have written is, sadly, from my own experience and that of expat friends. The package you move for really, really, really has to be worth the huge sacrifices in terms of family, support and identity.

I live in continental Europe at the moment, and am luckily enjoying many of the benefits (namely financial) from being an expat with the fact of easjet and 90 min flying time making it much easier to keep family relationships going. I still find Skype a bugger, and find keeping my dc's lives running, and constantly planning trips to see grandparents takes a huge chunk of my time. My career is somewhat on the backburner, firstly for having moved for DH's career, and secondarily because it's harder to keep climbing that ladder outside your home country, and thirdly because I have less time and physical family support here.

This post is a big list of cons, and I really hope I've not offended you with any of it - absolutely discard if none of it chimes with you, and best luck with the decision.

[batsforlashes]

Hi,

Well I also broke the news to my family last week that we were moving to Sydney and like you, everyone was very upset and it feels like it will be a long emotional three months before we get there. Hope you are ok- it is very stressful even if you know deep down it is the right decision. I keep waiting for that half stone of weight to fall off with all the stress but not a chance so far !


I am not sure how well you know Sydney- but it is beautiful and friendly a fabulous place for kids. Yes it is expensive but salaries are generally higher and eating out is cheaper and you can shop from the Uk for lots of things - there is no customs duties in Australia for purchases under 1000AUD- I have been doing my research ! Also Amazon have just started Supersaver deliveries as well. I have spent quiet a bit of time there and always felt so comfortable and energised by the city. My husband is from Sydney so I have spent quite a lot of time there.

I am going to be hanging around this forum quite a bit so if you would like a virtual shoulder to cry on/ relocation buddy I would be delighted.


X

[willow5]

Hi, got cut off from my last msg, we also had the same reaction from partners family that you had. My mum was sad but more understanding as she understood why we wanted to go and I wasn't living in the UK anyway. Partners family reacted like you mentioned, making us feeling guilty, we have been here for 3 years now and we will move back to Europe and I guess family is a factor. I am cross with partners family though, they came to visit once after much persuasion, their attitude is you moved, you visit. Their whole visit was a disaster, 3 weeks of them complaining about everything, saying we're breaking up the family, our children will hate us for destroying the grandparent relationship and on and on ...
I guess I would say that if you really want to go, you have the opportunity so give it a go. Sydney is a very easy life with children, parks are filled with children everyday and nice weather means its easy to get out. But financially it can be expensive, especially on the 457 visa, in the city, when you are not in the system and are considered a visitor.
It's only by coming out here that you will be able to gauge how you feel, if it can be home or not, either way it will no doubt be a positive life experience.
My partner's family have still not accepted us being here, and it's ironic that they want us home but make so little effort, being generally negative to everything, never sending birthday gifts to the children because 'postage is expensive' etc, and claim not to know their grandchildren (they referred to my 1 yr old on skype as 'that other one' whereas plenty of my friends who have family in England have engaged grandparents who have a relationship with their grandchildren, its just about a commitment to stay in touch from both parties.
Good luck with your decision!

[SeymoreButts]

Thanks midoriway I will look into those now, the visa systems is a bit puzzling. If we don't have to wait around for his employer that would be great!

Willow5 I can't believe your inlaws, do you think they will ever come round? It would make things so much easier to go with everyone's blessing. I am hoping BIL will come round but he's not backing down yet, he is really angry. In my opinion he has always pleased himself before considering PIL, where as DH is the opposite, so I'm not sure why he has reacted like this.

Rosetti I am not offended at all, I need to hear all this stuff. It's funny that DH and I have talked about moving to Oz wistfully for years, but now it might happen I feel more worried than excited. There are so many unknowns which is most of the problem. DH hasn't been given details of his package yet because they are restructuring in the Sydney office, when his job has been "created" HR will give him the details. I am a bit about the wait.

batsforlashes When do you move? DH has been told anywhere between 3 and 6 months, but we haven't been given any firm details yet which is stressing me out! Do you have any DCs? We haven't got a house here to rent out, but have just signed up to a long term tenancy, the landlord will not be pleased! I know nothing about Sydney, I've never been to Australia but DH has been a few times. x

[NoelEdmondshair]

I honestly do not understand why people would contemplate moving their kids away from their loving grandparents and extended family for a "better" life in foreign climes. Heartbroken grandparents and kids

[SeymoreButts]

It would be a big promotion for DH, and would make our quality of life considerably better in both the short and long term. That's why we are considering it. Unless DH gets offered a fantastic package we will probably decline it, because of the effect on family.

[NoelEdmondshair]

How would it make your quality of life considerably better? Are you talking financially and materially?

[sunnydelight]

We've been in Sydney for four years now (we come with PR and are now citizens) and I have to say that whether or not you find salaries higher than the UK is totally dependent on what you do. The rule of thumb seems to be that the more senior you are the less likely that is to be the case. Most of the people we know have taken a cut in salary of up to 1/3 on arrival - DH's company brings a lot of people out on 457 visas and he always tells people at interview that you come to Sydney for "lifestyle", not for the money.

You say that you would like to not have to hang around for your DH's employer - a 457 (business) visa will take 6-8 weeks to come through, if you go for PR yourselves (assuming that you satisfy the visa requirements) the process can take up to 18 months and then you have to find a job.

The only people we know who have managed to get flights home as part of their package are MD level, ditto private school fees. Most companies have really tightened their belts over the past ten years so whereas this was once quite a standard expat perk it is increasingly rare. You might be able to negotiate the compulsory $4,700 public school fee that everyone on a 457 has to pay though, and you certainly need to negotiate LAFHA (living away from home allowance). This is totally a matter for individual negotiation - not all companies do it (there is no right to it) but it will make a HUGE difference to your take home. Do remember though that technically as soon as you put in an application for PR you lose your LAFHA.

I do hate to bang on about the financial side of things but Sydney is a very expensive place to live so you really must do your homework so you don't end up with a nasty surprise. I tend to meet quite a lot of "new arrivals" and there are some very unhappy people out there who assumed they would be living in lovely big houses in nice areas and have lots of spare cash to enjoy all Sydney has to offer (which is lots), and are having to come to terms with a very different reality. Have a look at domain.com.au and realestate.com.au to get an idea of rents (and remember the figures quoted are per week, not per month).

A few years ago I would have said not to bother shipping much stuff, but if your DH's employers will pay I would now say bring everything you can. When we arrived we got 2.5 Aussie dollars for our pound, today it's 1.5. You should also try and get the company to pay for your accommodation for at least 2 weeks, preferable 3 so you don't end up renting somewhere that isn't really suitable because you panic. If they will cough up for a relocation agent, great as they will help you with areas. A really common expat problem is starting off in an area you love but could never afford to buy in - it gets hard to move once kids are settled in school/pre-school and you have made local friends. If your DH is working in the CBD being close to a train line will make his life much easier. If he will be driving to work don't just look at a map and think "that will be a 15 minute drive" based on distance - rush hour traffic can be horrific (Aussies do love their cars) and what should take 15 minutes might take an hour or more at peak times.

After all that doom and gloom I have to say that I think Sydney is THE most amazing place in the world to live, and brilliant for kids. Every time I go back to the UK I am so thankful that we made the move (my 17yo says he feels really sorry for the friends he left My kids just seem to have so many more opportunities here than they ever had in England. If you have any more questions, ask away.

[TheBride]

You have decided to move so far away that years will go by without you seeing your family. So far away that when anyone gets sick you are not available to help/support. So far away that you are teaching your children that relationships are nothing in comparison to "lifestyle".

Bit harsh BestNameEver and somewhat melodramatic. You cant spend your whole life waiting for your parents to die so you can do what you want.

[SeymoreButts]

Did I mistakenly post this in AIBU? I posted in Living Overseas because I wanted to hear the experiences and views of people who have been in a similar situation. Not because I wanted to be attacked for even considering the idea. This is by no means a done deal for us, precisely because of the effect it could have on our family. If we were just buggering off and hang the consequences then a kicking would be justified.

If we do go ahead, DH will be promoted to COO level, whether we stay out there or move back to UK it will be a huge boost to him and make a big difference to our quality of life.

BestName don't make such ill informed judgements about me and my family. You haven't got the first idea what I teach my kids about anything. Up until the middle of last year I was a high earner and the main bread winner in our family. I worked in finance where part time is not an option if you want to be taken seriously. I worked 12 hours days (often more) and was a mum to my kids at the weekends only, but boy did we have an amazing lifestyle. I gave it all up to be a better mum to them when it was clear that while DD was thriving and happy, DS was not. Our income nosedived and we now rent a small flat, with no garden and my DS and DD share a bedroom. We gave up the "lifestyle" purely for the "relationships". If Sydney gives DH a step up in his career and maybe means we can have a garden or help our DCs financially in future then it is not as selfish as you are implying.

Noel see above.

Sunnydelight You have hit my concerns on the head! We're not going to know until DH gets more details but I don't want to move and be worse off than we are now. It will be an amazing boost for DH career wise but we are in a small flat as it is in a very rural area, the thought of inner city apartment living whilst being so far away from family does not appeal at all. DH's employer have confirmed that he would qualify for LAFHA and they will help with school fees. I have no idea about shipping or accommodation though. Thanks for the tip on shipping, I was wondering how much stuff we should sell/bring. DH's office is in Haymarket, we have some close friends living in Bondi and were thinking of staying there for a month or two while we figure out areas. DH wouldn't mind getting the train to work, it's what he has always done here. 18 months for PR doesn't sound too bad, I would plan to go university once I have it. But if we decide to head back to the UK after a few years it might not be worth considering anyway. Lots to think about!

[SeymoreButts]

Thanks TheBride