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My builder gave me a list of what he would do with a price....

(33 Posts)
PinkChick Thu 17-Jul-08 15:19:51

now he's almost finished and there were a few things we added (spotlights that you can tilt as oppsoed to static ones, under wall unit lights, bit of skirting, 3 extra peices of plaster board, extra plaster, extra £100 on radiator..he has now bumped up the fee by £600!!!.."for materials and labour"!!!!..sorry but am i wrong in thinking as he was doing all of these jobs anyway (plaster boarding ceiling, putting in spots etc) that he should be charging anything like this for labour??..the spots were about £8-but he WAS already buying the static ones, the under unit lights were about £8, we bought 3, bit of skirting?..what £10?..extra plaster and plaster board??£60 max??..have now asked for breakdown, letting him know we didnt estimate this as i was checking on prrces all the way through..but am i being unreasonable here?..the job did take longer thn he originally said, but he didnt price me on time, he priced the work and it only ran over due to his staff being slow(he told me this) and the fact he kept popping out to start 2 other jobs off, one day not getting to ME till gone 3.30pm!!!!angry..he's coming at 4.30 to finish off a few bits but im not happy!

frisbyrat Thu 17-Jul-08 15:30:09

Is his name Luke? Sounds like the shyster who did my kitchen! Sympathy. sad

PinkChick Thu 17-Jul-08 15:32:25

no and all through this his has seemed very different to anyone else we've had..like i say telling me what he's paid etc..i did feel very confident with him!hmmbut i refuse to pay xtra because he only did 10am-4pm days most of the time and the fact he regulary popped out for hours to 'start off' this other job which he then had to spend longer on due to something 'always' going wronghmm..he hasnt been paid A PENNY yet though!

PinkChick Thu 17-Jul-08 15:32:40

but it was my kitchen he did!hmm

islandofsodor Thu 17-Jul-08 15:35:00

I work in the construction industry. Any extras should be charged only for the cost of the extra materials (not forgetting to omit the cost of the stuff originally quoted for but not required) and any extra labour involved. eg if a certain type of spotlight is more complicated to fit then obviously extra labour but he needs to be able to justify that.

When a written quote is provided then it is tough luck if he underestimiated completion time. It happens to us all the time, in fact on our larger contracts we have to pay penalties to the client if we take longer than we said!!!

Definately ask for a breakdown. What you should have done was to ask for a cost for the extras as you went along but you are well within your rights to query this extra unexpected cost.

ilovemydog Thu 17-Jul-08 15:36:55

builders! angry

Presumably, he did a quote for the original work? Can you get him to produce a bill, or would this inflame the situation?

Maybe just ask him, 'hmm, can you give me a bit more of a breakdown on that?'

PinkChick Thu 17-Jul-08 15:38:29

thanks..i do have written quote, no were does it say any lengh of time and TBH 7-10 days for a complete demolition of kitchen isnt realisstic, i myself said i thought 2-3 weeks!

i agree, that because he had to plaster more of the walls/fit ring main instead of skim and change sockets, they will be extra labour there, but not this much..dp has just told me its actually £700 more as kitchen company charged us £100 less than originally quotedhmm(he put it on his account)..feel really peeved off now!

PinkChick Thu 17-Jul-08 15:41:47

sorry, when he text me the total amount "inlcuding extra materials and labour"!! i asked if this included the new window whihc he had not yet fitted(had to go onto other job), he said no, as i hadnt confirmedhmm..i HAD!..so on top of this £700..there is another £240 for window and fitting!..i then said could i have a breakdown as we had not realised the extra materials we had asked for/needed would come to this much..no way am i paying for the later nights he worked because he didnt arrive till 3.30pm or go off on other job for hours on endsadangry

ilovemydog Thu 17-Jul-08 15:54:50

Can I make a suggestion? I take it that you've been the one dealing with him?

I would tell him that you have to discuss with DH and then get DH to deal with him.

I have had this before - despite me being the one to get quotes from builders, organize the work etc, there have been a few who try and pull a fast one.... angry

islandofsodor Thu 17-Jul-08 16:15:03

SAy you need a written breakdown of all the extra materials, labour time and including omissions (cost of original lights etc.)

Do not accept charges for out of hours working unless there was a specific reason it had to be out of hours eg. you said something needed to be done in the evening/weekend).

From a contractors point of view a builder does not have a legal leg to stand on if he hasn't got a written instruction from you for any extras (my Dad has been to court and lost on this one and he was only trying to charge for genuine work done!)

PinkChick Thu 17-Jul-08 18:25:31

thanks both of you.
I have told dp that HE is dealing with itsmile
Builder not turned up so i text to say "did you mean tonight"? as his text said thursday but he send it after midnight last night..so he rang me and said he was still working on this other jobhmm..and would be here asap, he said he was calling home for the break down and would bring it..he then said it was for plaster, boards etc, he said he HADNT charged for the saturday when his

PinkChick Thu 17-Jul-08 20:12:09

sorry, he turned up..shown me his breakk down..the plasterer who he had working with him, had only been told he would be needed for 3 days, because ALL my walls needed re-plastering not just skimming and some required inches thick of browing(i did see all this going on) he was here a further 4 days..i have been charged for 3 of them..everything else he has shown me reciepts for, what he charged extra for( the extra work for him to sort ring main out etc) and it all tally's, plus the kitchen company gave me a figure today and sent him a different one, they hadnt included certain things (soft close hinges etc) that they have on his!..he went home and brought back his actually invoice from them..........what can you do?!

figroll Fri 18-Jul-08 10:09:12

I think some builders think that they should be paid the same rate as brain surgeons. Give me a brain surgeon any day - it might work out cheaper too.

noddyholder Fri 18-Jul-08 12:37:28

It always costs more than you think but a good plasterer is worth every penny as it makes everything else so much easier to finish

cornflakegirl Fri 18-Jul-08 13:20:32

He hasn't just suddenly realised that the plasterer would need longer though, has he? He should have agreed the extra work with you before he instructed the plasterer to do it.

PinkChick Sat 19-Jul-08 19:56:54

thanks everyone, yes, he obv did know plasterer was going to be here longer and when he told me he was coming one saturday, he didnt say "oh but this will cost you X"..i refused to pay for saturday as like someone said i hadnt 'needed' him to come, he chose to, job wasnt life or death!

we arranged that this wouldnt be charged and his own labour was reduced, there are other things i wasnt happy about but i was getting sick by this point...now builder has text me today to say because my bank wouldnt let my chq clear as it "wasnt dp's signature"..no its joint account with MY sig!..he's now paid all his suppliers and gone overdrawn!!! FFS..what idiot pays all his b bills before he actually has money in the bank!?, surely builders know things like this ahppen!...i transfered money via my bank over phone but for some reason he ahsnt got it(gone from mine), he now says MY bank should pay the fee he's being charged!!...sorry but even though i only have my own small business, i MAKE SURE i have an oevrdraft limit on, im sure a very busy builder would have the same!..am geetting more sick of this by the minute!
He STILL didnt finish the jobs he was supposed to do on thursday as his "be there at 4-4.30" turned into 8PM!!! when dd was going to bed(which he knows) and he would have been sawing, banging etcangry..so told him to vcome back this coming week when last bit arrives in and do all together..so get this..he's NOT finished..two weeks AFTER job was supposed to end and has also today asked me for the balance!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HAve told him that as bill was over £900 more than we knew we did not have that money and once we DID he would then be paid!..you cant drop that much extra on someone and expect it in cash there and then!..ive had to go and borrow an EXTRA £1000 todayshocksadangry

Helennn Sun 20-Jul-08 09:16:57

You ask which builder pays all his bills before he actually has money in the bank - like us, that would be the one where the builders merchants have strict credit terms and will not let you buy anything if you have not paid your monthly bill, therefore he won't be able to get materials for other jobs. Also, you paid him over the phone, unless you paid a charge of about £15 it still takes several days for a payment to go through. We recently had somebody take a while to pay us, if he hadn't paid us when we did we would have incurred a charge of over £100, it was very stressful for us.

I can understand that you are very p*sed off at how this has gone but sometimes the tradesman gets blamed for things that were not their fault - and it does annoy me, so sorry if this is not the case.

PinkChick Mon 21-Jul-08 13:43:44

hiya got another thread for advice again, but builder was NOT charged because my chq 'bounced' he was charged because he SPENT IT 2-3 days after he put it in, not even giving it time to clear, never mind making SURE it went in, which it didnt and i rang him straight away...been onto my bank they said no way would they pay for his inability to manage his money and he's kicking off about how he got cheque in good faith now!!..good faith or not, you dont spend money you ahvent got!.end off..am very annoyed now that he thinks he can bump up bill my £900+, then say he wants US to pay for him overspending before he had money in bank!angry

islandofsodor Mon 21-Jul-08 20:36:42

It can take up to 10 working days for a cheque to clear. Presumably you paid your bill on time. You are entitled to withold payment if the work has not been completed to your satisfaction or there are extras that you have not approved.

Did you agree the extras at all? If you did without getting a price for them first then you must pay and put it down to expereince. If on the other hand the extras occured because the builder underestimated the job then it is tough luck. That's life in the construction industry, you win some, you lose some.

With regards to the plastering. If you told him it would only need skimming but in actual fact it needed more doing then he should have informed you of this and told you that the extra cost would be £x. If he just went ahead and organised the plasterer to do the work anyway without your say so then you should not have to pay.

We have been to court and lost on a technicality because some extras were not signed for (they were verbally agreed but it was the customer's word against my Dad's and the judge chose to beleive the customer).

I'm confused about the cheque issue. Was the cheque refused or not. If it was refused and it was your fault (lack of funds) or a bank error then the bank or you should pay any charges incurred. If however he just went overdrawn before the amount had properly cleared then again tough luck. I understand about builder's merchants possibly putting him on stop but if he did the job properly and charged properly in the first place clients would not delay payment!

PinkChick Tue 22-Jul-08 09:56:04

HI IOS, thankyou for that, its really helpful and confirms what we have been thinking ourselves.

to answer a few points..

yes there were funds in the bank, our bank witheld the amount as they said my signature didnt match the one they had on record for me..the builder WAS NOT charged because the cheque was returned (to him), he WAS charged because he spent the amount of the cheque well before it would have even had time to clear normally.

at no point during the work being done till he tell me that as a result of the plastereer doing more plastering than HE(the builder) estimated, that this would cost ME more..he asked me how long paslterer was here on certain days as plasterer was claiming more...even THEN he DID NOT tell me I would be footing this bill, i assumed HE was paying his wages, he factored this into our bill.

He has charged us for a second skip, he states in his letter he will remove water damaged kitchen/plaster/tiles etc..he had first skip filled, we (the day before work was due to commence and not before) then said the people who had wanted to buy our old kitchen, could no longer come, he then ordered another mini skip to put this in...from the off he knew he had to remove and dispose of kitchen, only the day before did he think someone was picking it up in stead..so he MUST have included 2 skips in with his initial quote!

He also charged us extra labour for himself as instead of connecting new wiring to old electrics he put a new ring main in..i DID when we first spoke say to him that i wanted EVERYTHING ripping out and putting back in new, this inlucded the electrics, so this SHOULD have been included anyway!

i accept fullr esponsability for the extra lighting, nicer sockets, extra plaster and plaster board..but do not agree with everything else, so if he continues this petty argument, i will tell him to not come back (TBH i have no trust in him at ALL now!), i will get someone else to finish off the remaining work(it was due to take 7-10 days he said, it took him 3 full weeks and it is STILL not done!as he went onto other jobs and fitted other jobs in whilst he was meant to be doing mine!)and deduct that price of the final balance, i will also refuse any extra labour he has added on as i did NOT consent to this at any time during the work being done and im also NOT paying for the second skip..we've actually had to get ANOTHER midi skiip ourselves to get ruip of the old ceiling joists and kitchen doors etc which he didnt bother removing!

islandofsodor Tue 22-Jul-08 11:00:19

Give him chance to put things right. It will go against you if you don't give hm that chance and things get taken further. It is fairly standard for builders to do other jobs at the same time, what is not on is to charge you extra because of that.

I would suggest paying in full (if you havn't already done so for the amount on the original quote plus your agreed extras. As all the snagging hasn;t been completed you could withold 10% as a retention. That's not usually necessary for domestic jobs but we would prefer to be paid for what has been done than the whole amount being held up.

You could technically speaking contra charge (knock off the payment) the amount you have had to pay for the skip as this work should have been carried out by the builder in his original quote. (Check first that these were detailed in his quote).

PinkChick Tue 22-Jul-08 11:09:32

it doesnt actually detail the skip it just says removeal of old kitchen etc, first skip came same day he did and was only mini so no way would everythign he had agreed to take from kitchen have fit in!hmm
cant believe the way its turned out though, it is really a good job and i really felt he wasnt the usual builder(sorry, but from my experience, we've neevr managed to get a good one yet)but now am really dissapointed, we have lots of jobs around house we had earmarked for him, now looks like we'll have to start looking again!

PinkChick Tue 22-Jul-08 11:11:54

oh and the thing is, if he does take thingsfurtherhmm..he wont have a leg to stand on as we hadnt agreed any of these extra charges PLUS the guys who have been working for him, i have recently found out, are working "cash in hand" not declaring it!, so he really doesnt want to be bringing it up that i dispute extra labour charges for a builder he's not employing legit and to cancel out his wages, is showing my bill to be more!!hmm...although, NOW my bill IS more!..cheeky sod!

PinkChick Tue 22-Jul-08 19:55:32

ok, more to come!..todaya t nursery drop off with mindee the builders wife waits until we get into the very small stairway to class room, comes right up to my face and 'bellows' "HIYA"!..i say hi and carry on trying to help mindee up steps and she shouts in true fish wife style "eer, shes not talking to ME now is she...." and carried on blabbing while i walked away trying to get mindee away!

teacher asked what THAT was about so i told her and she was very unhappy with her, got home and rang builder and absolutely went through him..i first asked what his wife was doing shouting and bad mouthing me (a childminder with a good reputation) in the local nursery, then it all came out about him adding extras on, that in actual fact the top and bottom of his bank prob, 'was' in fact HIS problem, I didnt spend HIS moeny before the cheque had cleared, he did and wether he usually does that or not, he only has himself to blame, i told him im not comfortable with him any more, i find him unproffesional, his wife has underminded him and showed me up and i am going to get in someone else to finish the job!
he said he HASNT paid for my kitchen yet, despite this being his reason that he neeed the £3000 off me!

i told him that at no point did he say the extra plastering would involve ME paying the plasterer for extra days, he never said he was only there for 3 days, nor did he bring it to my attention when it happend!..i asked him to get a grip of reality and said I am faced with a £900 EXTRA bill to find and he and his wife are causing holy hell because HE has gone overdrawn and is NOW hit with a £45 fee!, i know which id rather have!

I then told him that i had been more than polite and patient and that a 7-10 day job was STILL not finished 5 weeks later, im not botherd if he had other jobs lined up, you dont get paid till youve done the job end of!.

His wife approached me AGAIN at nursery this afternoon and said "i want to speak to you, can you wait there a minute"... i say No and walked away i wasnt getting into another argument ..she followed me to were i pick my dd and other mindees up and waited until i was walking home before saying (although NOT apologising) that she was like she was cos she thought i was ignoring her!..to which i calmly replied i have nothing to say to you, i deal with my builder, who ahppens to be your husband, what i say to him is my business not yours and i do not take kindly to being shouted down the phone at then humiliated inside classroom. she then asked me if i was going to speak to her husband!(obv hadnt told him how 'nice' she was earlier and i said i already have and walked away all the while trying to be calm and look after the children.

ive got hom and rung my aunty who's a solicitor, shes said same as many of you...if i asked for extra's, i pay for them, but if job turns out bigger than he estimated for thats his problem and i do NOT need to pay extra labour when he should have(already DID looking at his quote) factored a little extra in.
She s said if anything comes of it to give her name and mention about him illegally employing this plasterer and hopefully it will sink in he is in the wrong..a bit of communication would have gone a long way, i could have either said ok, i agree to the extra work and will pay extra or no, you quoted this, im paying this..either way, its now got nasty and i have no idea where its going nowsad..what a mess!

islandofsodor Tue 22-Jul-08 22:42:21

Well the ball is in his court now. You've paid for the work that has been done, yes? Pund to a penny he won't take it any further, especially if his subbies are doing what is known in the trade as a foreigner.

If you get any more hassle from the wife then get your auntie to write a letter requesting that all harrasment ceases and that you have made what you consider to be a final settlement.

If anyone lives in Staffordshire I can reccomend several good firms of builders who sub for us and are 100% professional

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