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Struggling with Moral Decision - Property

(45 Posts)
Martin10 Wed 14-Oct-15 23:34:13

Hi all,

Cut a long story short my sister and I share a property 50/50. My Mum went into a care home two years ago and she has moved her daughter and son in law in. I haven't lived at the property for over 20 years and she has lived there all her life. My Mum had next to no mortgage, £50 per month which was paid off years ago so my Sister has contributed towards the bills but basically nothing else. My Mum has always supported my sister financially and I've never asked for any help.

We don't have a good relationship and it is now the case with her daughter unfortunately, brain washed by her Mum.

As her daughter is now living there I wish to sell my share of the property to her, or they pay me rent which I am entitled to I have learnt, actually it's my Sister who should pay me rent but clearly it will be them.

I do not wish to sell the property but can if none of this is resolved.

The money if attained will be invested for my children's future.

My Sister has never had any financial responsibility and her daughter and son in law want to live their rent free which is great for them.

I always said I would not do anything while my sister was there on her own.

They're now calling me all the names under the sun and telling me I cannot force a sale which in fact I can but have not lowered my self to their level. Even had the son in law texting me telling me if I push to hard nothing will happen.

I have explained my case and this has been going on since May 2015. I have now instructed a solicitor as they're taking the the p**s out of me.

People I have spoken to understand my situation and agree that I am making the right decision but I still don't feel comfortable with this.

Some feedback would be appreciated on people feelings and ideas on this situation.

OnlyHereForTheCamping Wed 14-Oct-15 23:39:57

Basically you are selling your sisters home out from under her. This is not a nice thing to do

SchnitzelVonKrumm Wed 14-Oct-15 23:41:18

So the property was your mother's and your sister lived there with her? Did your mother require care during that time, and did you both provide it or did the burden fall mainly on your sister?

BetaTest Wed 14-Oct-15 23:53:39

Can the daughter and son in law get a mortgage and buy out your half of the property?

They would still be living extremely cheaply. It is your property.

That said who is paying for the care home?

HappenstanceMarmite Thu 15-Oct-15 00:00:54

Can the daughter and son in law get a mortgage and buy out your half of the property?

That would probably be the best solution. Sounds like they are not open to any change though. Suits them just as is.

Bearbehind Thu 15-Oct-15 01:30:02

Basically you are selling your sisters home out from under her. This is not a nice thing to do

Really? hmm

Would you be quite so benevolent it it were hundreds of thousands of pounds of your money tied up in a property being used to house your siblings children whilst your own children see no benefit?

OP, this is never going to end well but you need to do what is best for your family and that is releasing your half of the house so your family benefit from it- it is not for you to support your sisters children.

FishWithABicycle Thu 15-Oct-15 04:47:59

Yanbu to want to see financial benefit from this property you own but there are other ways to realise that benefit than selling.

you are entitled to 50% of a fair rent for the property. Possibly slightly discounted as it is family. To be honest of you take this capital as cash you aren't going to get much return for it anywhere else so it might as well stay where it is if you can make it produce a return.

What if this "rent" was transferred to you by incremental transfer of additional %age of the ownership of the property such that no money need change hands?

Say, to keep numbers simple, the property is worth £375,000 and a fair rent was £750 a month. Each month's rent is then equivalent to 0.2% of the property value - £375 of that imaginary sum belongs to your sister anyway and she is free to choose to give it to her daughter. £375 belongs to you and you have no obligation to give this amount to your niece every month. However if an additional 0.1% of the property value accrued to you every month then your investment would be growing faster than most other kinds of investment and no one would need to find extra cash. Might they agree to this?

After 20 years you would own just over 75% of the property and perhaps at that point the arrangement might be reviewed but that gives them plenty of time to plan for not having a free ride for ever.

Martin10 Thu 15-Oct-15 08:17:54

I should point out my Sister had a one night stand in her mid 20's and decided to keep the child. My Mum raised them both and supported them financially and emotionally.

My Mum did have a stroke 9 years ago and my Sister cared for her until a couple of years ago when she had to go in a home, but then my Mum cared for them both a lot longer. I wanted to sell the property and put my Mum in a private care home from the funds, my Sister was very reluctant and said I'll have to come and live in your garden as she has very little money as works as a teachers assistant. She is now in a council run home which isn't great, safe and sound but just very poor.

I genuinely do feel as if I am being fair but she is saying you could have waited till Mum died, but that could be at least another 10 years and why should they all live there like that, I've had a mortgage all my life like most people.

We agreed they would start looking into this after the August wedding, so I left it till September, now my Sister is saying a year, they are going on there honeymoon in November and I'm sure when they get they will be trying for a baby, so the next excuse will be they can't afford it.

Already been told they have debts.

This is not going to end nicely as already been told by my Sister she want nothing to do with me.

Still feel morally this could be wrong but at the same time, morally it's wrong what they're doing. If they move out which I think they will do just to avoid paying me any money to spite me, that will just make it harder for my sister to remain as the costs of living there is quite high for her, so really they're hurting her and not me.

But then do I still force my sister to pay rent after all this or just sell it and have nothing to do with them?

My kids won't miss out as they only saw them twice the first year they were born and lucky to get an Easter egg, where my mum clothed and supported my niece the whole time, even took them on holiday every year.

WhoTheFuckIsSimon Thu 15-Oct-15 08:27:39

I would do it all through a solicitor. I would force a sale and cut ties with them. They don't sound very nice. You don't owe them a free home.

atticusclaw2 Thu 15-Oct-15 08:30:27

Fish that arrangement is all very good in theory but would be a legal nightmare with the ever changing ownership values and would involve a significant amount of legal cost.

Just give them a deadline of either buying you out or moving out or paying rent by the end of next month and then stick to your guns

QuintShhhhhh Thu 15-Oct-15 08:32:40

What Simon said.

SleepyForest Thu 15-Oct-15 08:36:42

They are not going to be reasonable. You owe them nothing. Cut contact, go through solicitors and force a sale.

They could have saved themselves a lot of bother by being a bit nicer.

Martin10 Thu 15-Oct-15 08:37:08

I have now, instructed them and they have given them all the options.

Last night my sister text me and said, would you do this if I was here on my own, I have told her 10 times I wouldn't be doing this but now it's different.

She then said fine, so I'm guessing they will move out, but then do I continue and just sell the bloody place and cut all ties?

The costs for going to court is around £20k and she will be liable for 60% of my costs if it comes to that.

Ami I a bad person?

thehousewife Thu 15-Oct-15 08:44:46

She sounds like a nightmare. She will never see sense. Just carry on and sell. It's the only way. She will the have her share to use as she wish's to house herself! She's an adult, she needs to start looking after herself!!!!

LondonKitty Thu 15-Oct-15 08:53:42

It doesn't sound like they are going to negotiate reasonably and you don't seem to be close to them. So just sell and be done with it. If you sell, your sister gets half the money so it's not like they are left without. It is up to them what they do with that.

If you still feel this is unfair, then have a think about what you might be 'owed' in back rent versus what your sister might be owed for being your mum's carer when she was ill. If the sums don't add up, you can decide to offer your sister a little extra from the sale. Would that make you feel better?

But don't let this drag on and on...

Martin10 Thu 15-Oct-15 09:16:39

LondonKitty, here my other issue, although my Sister was my Mums carer, she still worked from 8am to 4pm and cared for my Mum in the morning and after work, ghad carers in three times a day to help, in the end it was only the evening and weekends that my sister cared for her. Would not give up her job which I under and as was a break for her.

It's in the hands of the solicitors now and it's there move next but agree it needs to be resolved.

At least the general consensus is that I'm not an evil money grabbing man, her words, so I feel a bit better.

It's more the principal than anything else, moved them in without even asking.

Thank you all.

WhoTheFuckIsSimon Thu 15-Oct-15 09:22:07

Have just realised your mum is still alive.
Has she actually gifted you the house already?

You need to be careful because this could be seen as trying to wriggle out of paying for care home fees. I'm not 100% but if your sister has lived there a long time the council can't make the house be sold to pay for fees as it's also your sisters home. But if they realise you've been given half and that its been sold they may start making some noise about it been sold.

But if your mum is still alive and it's still in her name it should be sold so she can go in a better care home?

Martin10 Thu 15-Oct-15 10:06:39

It was gifted back in 2001.

So my Mum now has nothing to do with the property.

LondonKitty Thu 15-Oct-15 10:39:58

Yeah, sell.

But when all the legal stuff is done, maybe make a nice gesture to mend family ties and acknowledge what your sister did (even if she kept her job, and was rewarded with free rent, it would have been very hard work for a long time to care for your poor mum) - you'll know best what this might be. And make sure your mum gets a nice pressie from the proceeds. She deserves it.

QuintShhhhhh Thu 15-Oct-15 11:47:16

Who paid for the carers?

Do you know how much carers cost?

Martin10 Thu 15-Oct-15 13:16:39

The carers were supplied by the council, more cost effective to do it that way than put my Mum in a home at the time.

whooshbangprettycolours Thu 15-Oct-15 18:13:46

Your mum did have something to do with it though until she moved out! This is depravation of assets and isn't allowable. I'd be very careful, giving away your home does not solve the problem, it's called a gift with reservation and it doesn't matter that it was done in 2001. The council has no time limit on this and can claim against it.

WhoTheFuckIsSimon Thu 15-Oct-15 18:27:35

good advice here

If back in 2001 your mum had no inkling that she would need care then it won't be regarded as deprivation of assets. Seeing as that's 14 years ago you/she could argue that. But I guess it would depend on when she started having carers.......the LA may argue if for example she started needing help in 2001 that she should have forseen that she may need to go into a home at some point. But with such a timespan Id have thought you'd be ok. Especially because it could also be argued it was also your sisters home. And as a parent she wanted you and your sister treated equally.

BeanIontach Thu 15-Oct-15 18:30:56

I think you're entitled to half of it, so unless you're very, very wealthy I would let her know that you aren't prepared to give up your half. IF she is courteous and respectful towards your absolute right to half share i might give her 60% to acknowledge that the asset was her home and she will have moving costs.

BeanIontach Thu 15-Oct-15 18:32:39

Also, give her six months to get used to the idea before you put the house up for sale.

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