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'FL / MLM' Thread 3

(649 Posts)
Eyespying Wed 12-Aug-15 08:43:06

Continuing the valuable discussion of 'Forever Living' and other 'MLM/commercial' cults.

Eyespying Wed 12-Aug-15 10:56:56

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

lazycoo Wed 12-Aug-15 11:22:36

For those who haven't seen the first two threads these can be found here and here

AbsentMindedNumpty Wed 12-Aug-15 11:23:59

Thanks for starting new thread, eye grin.

Eyespying Wed 12-Aug-15 12:54:45

lazycoo Thanks for posting the links to the previous threads. The approximately two thousands insightful comments these contain show just how many UK citizens have encountered 'FLbots' and have rightly deduced that so-called 'MLM' is a form of 'Prosperity Gospel' cultism designed to take over vulnerable individuals' minds in order to steal their time and money.

I look forward to the day when public conciousness has been raised to a level where 'MLM' is universally recognized as having been another, impressive sounding made-up name for one in a long line of crackpot, but criminal, cultic pseudo-sciences.

fishboneschokus Wed 12-Aug-15 21:12:26

You MUST listen to the Chris Evans thing.

Could someone tweet him to alert him to this series of threads on mn?
With a link to that excruciating interview?

fishboneschokus Wed 12-Aug-15 21:13:53

Rex says that he worked out the business model and THEN found the product.
(Random thoughts of L Ron Hubbard)

Eyespying Wed 12-Aug-15 22:05:32

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Eyespying Thu 13-Aug-15 09:38:45

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Eyespying Fri 14-Aug-15 08:49:19

Despite the fact that I didn't post his/her previous comment, the anonymous 'FLP' propagandist has sent another comment to my Blog:

------------------------------------------------------------

'You don't know what you are talking about!!! Forever Living Products gives to Macmillan Cancer Support!!!

homeofaloevera.co.uk/charity/

hoopdeloop Fri 14-Aug-15 15:34:42

Ahhhh excellent, my seemingly intelligent friend has just signed up for this. I have one FL friend, 2 Arbonne friends and a younique friend.

My fav post- be your own kind of beautiful.

I can't block though, it's fascinating to watch

Eyespying Fri 14-Aug-15 16:04:04

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Peacheykeen Fri 14-Aug-15 17:32:16

Just marking my place #bossbabe

Fishboneschokus Fri 14-Aug-15 18:07:46

It's all vey exciting watching pp sign up but more interesting will be how long before they give up. I want to know about ex-floats. Surely there must be thousands of them?

Eyespying Fri 14-Aug-15 18:26:46

Fishboneschokus -There are tens of thousands of ex FLbots, and millions of ex 'MLM' adherents, in the UK, with countless millions of former 'MLM' adherents world-wide, but it's important to distinguish between short-term and longer-term core adherents.

I'm always getting a trickle of e-mails from former, chronic 'MLM' adherents who confirm the accuracy of everything I've written, but very few of them ever want to go public.

I have to respect my contacts' privacy.

Just a few days ago, I received a particularly interesting e-mail from an ex-FLbot who confessed to having a garage full of products. However, I've heard nothing further, after I started to suggest that this witness' nightmare experence needed to be shared with the public.

Eyespying Sun 16-Aug-15 11:33:06

mlmtheamericandreammadenightmare.blogspot.fr/2015/08/donald-trump-now-tries-to-rewrite-his.html

WrenNatsworthy Mon 17-Aug-15 17:06:26

EyeSpying I'm really interested to know what your views are on Anne Summers, Avon, Usborne, Phoenix cards, Neal's Yard Remedies, Body Shop at home. Given that they are all also MLM companies, are you of the opinion that people who sell this stuff are all hapless victims?

I just think they're Mums trying to earn a few pennies around young children.

I dislike FLP though, they all scare me!

Eyespying Mon 17-Aug-15 17:59:58

WrenNatsworthy - I think you will find that 'MLM' rackets are identified by the fact that virtually no participant is actually selling anything to anyone who is not a contractee of the front companies. Honest people join 'MLM' schemes genuinely believing that they can make extra income by selling products, but once they get inside them, they soon discover that the products are effectively-usaleable on the open-market to persons with fully-functioning critical and evaluative faculties, whilst any profits derived from selling to supportive friends and relatives, are eaten up by all the allied expenses. 'MLM' adherents are then faced with very powerful indoctrination programs, designed to convince them that trying to sell the products is for losers: only winners achieve financial freedom by exactly duplicating a proven plan of self-consumption and recruitment.

What were once traditional direct selling companies (like 'Avon', founded before WWI as the 'California Perfume Company Inc.') i.e. corporate structures with restricted numbers of non-salaried commission agents operating in defined areas, who actually earn net-profits by regularly retailing cheap and cheerful products to the general public (based on value and demand), have lately transformed into 'MLM' companies, in an attempt to survive. They now offer participants financial incentives to recruit as many new participants as possible. This is because, door to door direct selling (a.k.a. peddling) has long-since effectively disappeared in countries like the USA and UK, not least because of supermarkets and the Internet.

I would classify 'Avon' as a failing traditional commercial company with managers who have desperately tried to copy existing 'MLM' cultic rackets like 'Amway', but without yet introducing the related advance fee frauds or the co-ordinated devious techniques of social, psychological and physical persuasion

Back in the 1980s, 'Amway' actually tried to buy the non-'MLM' Avon company, but the US FTC refused the deal, due to 'Amway's' owners having been charged with massive tax evasion in Canada.

Most well-informed observers tend to grade 'MLM' groups on a scale of 1-10 for danger, with examples like 'Amway', 'Herbalife', 'FLP', 'ACN,' etc., at 10 and others like 'Avon' and 'Pampered Chef,' at 1 or 2.

WrenNatsworthy Mon 17-Aug-15 19:00:55

I sell Neal's Yard Remedies. I'm not in a cult, I loved the products before they started doing party plan and joined for the discount. I run it alongside my other business, which is a CIC.

I've never felt like a cult member. I was wary of MLM because of folk I know who sell Forever, but I don't get encouraged to behave like a twat posting pics of the garden, stupid hashtags, or outrageous claims about health benefits of products.

I do occasional fairs and events and the folk I meet on other stalls are mainly Mums. People do buy off us, not just our friends, and it is possible to make a bit of extra cash. I understand that you know a lot about this subject but when I read these threads that poke fun at folk in direct sales I feel the need to point out that we're not all deluded mentalists. I'm training in massage therapy and I want to use organic products in my treatments. My choice. Nobody's forcing me!

Eyespying Mon 17-Aug-15 20:22:25

WrensNatsworthy Since I began examining so-called 'MLM income opportunities' almost 20 years ago, I have encountered countless active 'MLM', 'distributors', 'consultants', 'members,' etc. No matter what group they belong to, all of them employ essentially the same commercial jargon and make essentially the same claims:

to love the products,
to be excercising free will,
to be making money,
to be selling exclusive good-value products to genuine customers,
etc. etc.

These are all unquantifiable, anecdotal claims, whilst 'MLM' adherents never employ accurate terms like: 'overall net-profit.'

'MLM' adherents certainly never offer to produce their 'MLM'-related income-taxpayment receipts to back up their linguistically-inaccurate anecdotal 'income' claims.

After receiving your enquiry, I've just briefly looked at 'Neal's Yard Remedies,' and discovered that the products have also been available in traditional retail outlets. That said, since 'NYR' also offers a so-called 'MLM income opportunity,' these are some of the common-sense questions which you should have sought quantifiable answers to, before signing up:

- What percentage of 'Neal's Yard Remedies Consultants' have actually remained with the company for more than: 1 year? 3 years? 5 years?

- What has been the average annual drop-out rate for 'NYR Consultants?'

- Apart from the 'Starter-Kit,' what is the approximate amount of additional money that 'NYR consultants' have been required to find, to finance their first 12 months, non-salaried activities on behalf of the company?

- Since the company's instigation, how many different persons in total, have bought their own 'NYR Consultancy?'

- What lawful, and/or ethical, reasons can be put forward to explain why the key-information contained in the answers to the above questions has been withheld from prospective recruits?

- Have common-sense limits been set on the number of 'NYR Consultants' operating in given areas?

Eyespying Mon 17-Aug-15 22:00:11

WrenNatsworthy - One other common-sense question you ought to have asked, is:

Why has the Internet been loaded with unused 'Neal's Yard Remedies' inventory for sale,' and at prices often vastly-inferior to those fixed by the company?

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Neals-Yard-Remedies-Frankincense-Hydrating-Cream-Rrp-30-/262001186220?hash=item3d007cd5ac

www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Health-Beauty-/26395/i.html?_from=R40&_sac=1&_nkw=neal%27s%20yard%20remedies&rt=nc&LH_PrefLoc=2&_trksid=p2045573.m1684

WrenNatsworthy Tue 18-Aug-15 00:04:49

I wasn't asking for your advice, and despite your inference that I'm some sort of moronic robot, I did my research and am happy with my situation.

I fail to see how you can see the difference between someone who liked and used the range and was pleased to be able to buy it at a discount, and someone who has fallen for a 'get rich quick' scheme.

As someone who is training to be a therapist, it's been an excellent decision for me. A range like Dermalogica, for example, wouldn't be easy to get hold of until you have a premises, and the set up cost is prohibitive for someone starting a small business.

I would imagine those selling on eBay are those who signed up in order to do so.

WrenNatsworthy Tue 18-Aug-15 00:12:35

Having clicked on your link to eBay, most of the products are the same or slightly less price wise? I'm not sure of the point you're making there?

Eyespying Tue 18-Aug-15 08:17:31

WrenNatsworthy Let's get this straight, you are now claiming to be a 'Neal's Yard Remedies' discount customer, but who has been defined on a 'NYR' contract as a 'Consultant?' In more simple terms, although you have been described as a 'seller,' you are really a buyer?

You are obviously someone who knows everything about 'Multi-Level Marketing' and who, therefore, doesn't need any advice, but many readers of MN aren't quite as enlightened as yourself, and they might benefit from your advice.

Thus, if, as you claim, you've done your 'research,' then perhaps you would be so gracious as to enlighten the readers of MN about:

- What percentage of 'Neal's Yard Remedies Consultants' have actually remained with the company for more than: 1 year? 3 years? 5 years?

- What has been the average annual drop-out rate for 'NYR Consultants?'

- Apart from the 'Starter-Kit,' what is the approximate amount of additional money that 'NYR consultants' have been required to find, to finance their first 12 months, non-salaried activities on behalf of the company?

- Since the company's instigation, how many different persons in total, have bought their own 'NYR Consultancy?'

- What lawful, and/or ethical, reasons can be put forward to explain why the key-information contained in the answers to the above questions has been withheld from prospective recruits?

- Whether common-sense limits have been set on the number of 'NYR Consultants' operating in given areas?

- Why anyone would want to go to a 'Consultant,' when the Internet been loaded with unused 'Neal's Yard Remedies' inventory for sale, and at prices inferior to those fixed by the company?

-Whether your claimed 'NYR'-related earnings have represented an overall net-profit (backed up by 'NYR'-related income-tax payment receipts) or an overall net loss?

WrenNatsworthy Tue 18-Aug-15 09:18:26

I'm afraid I can't copy and paste your questions on the app so I may have to respond in more than one message.

The research I did was with regard to the claimed ethics of the company. I wasn't able to ask the questions you have asked me before I signed because I didn't know about how direct sales worked.

Those people who want to have a 'team' are encouraged to keep their own figures. Of course people will leave, it's not for everyone. I've never been led to expect that that is not the case though? I don't know how it is with other companies.

I make money by doing parties, although customers call me and put orders in as well as I deliver to them. We don't have a Neal's Yard in my city so they are happy that they don't have to drive to the shop. So my profit is my discount, less petrol, less catalogues, and less any samples I might give out.

I am often rebooked by people because the parties are fun, and they get a free gift (which I buy). Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to do. I did a fayre on Saturday and a lady came rushing over in order to book one because she loves the products and didn't know we did parties.

The info you are asking for about company growth is shared, it's not a secret. However people, like I did, sign up because they love the product, not because they are enticed by the idea that they can make lots of money or 'hashtag' sack the boss.

I wouldn't want to be a part of another direct selling company, I'm not interested in company cars and titles. I may leave and do something else when my son is older. Again, nobody is forcing me to do anything I don't want to do.

I signed up to NYR because I thought it would sit alongside my other business and make me some extra money on the side. It does, and I have to work at it, just as I do the other business, however it was never sold to me that I'd be sitting on my arse watching the money roll in. It's very similar to working in retail, except I work the hours that fit around my husband's job so we don't have to pay childcare.

I'm a living breathing human sat behind this screen. I've been a numsnetter for years. I don't think though, that I'm going to be able to convince you, or the other people on this thread who are sat on social media taking the piss out of their friends who've joined direct sales, otherwise though.

I'll go back to my morning chant about how I'm going to take over the world like the zombie apocalypse now.

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