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Power of Attorney - Help

(21 Posts)
DawnNAPM Mon 29-May-17 23:12:24

So here's the thing. Me, my older brother & older sister all hold joint EPOA for my 84 yr old mum which has already been registered. Before we set this up my brother agreed with my mum to make her bank account joint with him. My mum is now in a care home & suffers from Dementia. We have sold her house to fund her care & have enough money left to pay for another 3 years. Whilst I handle all of her financial affairs, my brother has recently gone through a messy divorce & has asked to borrow money (20k) from my mums account to pay off some debts monthly. He agreed a payment plan & has yet to make any payments. Whilst this is not a problem today, if my mum outlives her money running out my brother will have to pay the money back or else, as I understand it, the council may review my mums accounts & refuse to fund continued care. Hopefully my mum will live a few more years but in the meantime my brother has been using my mums account as a sort of free overdraft. Whilst he only borrows money temporarily, Today he has taken another £2k to "pay for a holiday" stating " I'll put it back when I get paid" as POA I am v unhappy about this but do t know what to do. My Brother should not be dipping into my mum's account when it suits him but as he is a joint account holder with her I can't stop him. He has already allegedly cleared his debts with the previous borrow so am not sure why he doesn't just use his credit card. I Just look like the big bad little sister & would appreciate any thoughts or advice on this. Many thx.

hatgirl Mon 29-May-17 23:14:29

Is it definitely a joint account or is he a signatory on the account?

DancingLedge Mon 29-May-17 23:22:13

If he holds POA and is dipping into her money that would be criminal.

Is it a joint account in both their names? Or one that he has third party access to?

DawnNAPM Mon 29-May-17 23:40:59

It is definitely a joint account. Whilst he has given me the cards etc. It still shows on his account for internet banking as he banks with the same bank. He can therefore do internet transfers. I'm thinking of going into the bank and asking for advice as he has done it before & whilst he has so far always put the money back (apart from the £20k) it was £11k a month ago! It's not his money!

Giraffey1 Mon 29-May-17 23:47:43

My understanding is that if you are acting under the lasting power of attorney rules, you are managing the acccount on behalf of the named person and using the funds to provide a loan for anyone else would be a criminal offence.

DancingLedge Mon 29-May-17 23:53:27

Just to be clear, what precisely makes you say it is a joint account? That is, an account where for instance, both names are printed on a cheque book? And both names appear on bank statements.

I have a TPA, third party authority on a relatives bank account, I have a card for that account, and could carry out transactions entirely legally. However, it's not a joint account, so legally its definitely not my money, its his.

Out2pasture Tue 30-May-17 00:03:08

he is misusing her funds plain and simple. it isn't his slush fund. i'm not sure in the uk who this gets reported to but he should be removed from the epoa.
where I live it would be reported to the public guardian and trustee who would freeze the account review all the transactions and issue recommendations (which occasionally means they take over the role)

DancingLedge Tue 30-May-17 00:15:33

Yes in UK Office of the Public Guardian is who to report it to.
www.gov.uk/government/organisations/office-of-the-public-guardian

You need to report to protect your mother, to stop your brother digging a deeper hole for himself, and because as POA yourself, your position requires this of you.

My sympathy, this must be a difficult position your brother has put you in.

stonecircle Tue 30-May-17 01:05:21

Wow. He is committing a criminal offence and you are failing in your duties in allowing this to happen.

GingerAndTheBiscuits Tue 30-May-17 01:16:31

There is also a safeguarding concern here that might warrant further investigation. Your brother has been very inappropriate.

DancingLedge Tue 30-May-17 08:36:32

You might also be able to get some helpful advice from Adult Social Services.They are very banned up on the financial abuse of elderly people.

DancingLedge Tue 30-May-17 08:36:58

very genned up

LeninaCrowne Tue 30-May-17 08:39:52

Has the money from the house sale gone into this account?

If so he could siphon it all off.

originalbiglymavis Tue 30-May-17 08:44:38

Sorry about your mum. It's stressful but your brother is making it so.much worse for you. Age Concern is very useful for advice.

The purpose of the LPOA is that you manage financial or medical affairs on behalf of someone​ else, not give you carte blanche. How was it set up - do you both have to agree to action or can one of you make a decision?

But it's a joint account with your mum? I think that's more tricky as he can use it as his own money can't he?

You are not big bad sis, you are trying to do fair by your mum.

titchy Tue 30-May-17 09:24:40

The fact that it's a joint account is irrelevant. It's clear that the original sum of money came from your dm.

If the money runs out the council will regard the joint account as hers, not split, in the same way that you can't transfer your house to your children in order to avoid care fees.

stonecircle Tue 30-May-17 09:25:21

I'd be surprised if it was a joint account in the normal sense.

I'm looking at the cheque book dsis and I had for our mum. The name at the bottom of each cheque has my name and dsis's names, then it says "POA for [mum's name].

It meant we could take money out of and pay for things from mum's account ON HER BEHALF. I never used it. Dsis did, to buy clothes for mum and pay bills for her etc. She kept a running total of everything she spent out of the account and insisted on showing it to me regularly (even though I trust her to be scrupulously honest).

If you also have POA for your mum you are legal obliged to make sure she is not being exploited financially. And she is.

SleightOfHand Tue 30-May-17 09:25:40

.

Out2pasture Tue 30-May-17 13:46:15

Slight, there is a watch feature on the site.
At the top of the page across from TALK, it's part of the options.

DancingLedge Tue 30-May-17 13:50:47

Legally there is a difference between a joint account t and an account with a TPA

@DawnNAPM another thing you could do straightaway, is to go to the bank armed with your EPOA, and, acting on your mum's behalf, ask to cancel the joint account mandate. Check with the bank that that will be enough to stop him accessing the account.

SleightOfHand Tue 30-May-17 16:23:40

Yes, thank you.

Musicaltheatremum Wed 31-May-17 19:05:25

I had POA over my husband's accounts it meant I could access the accounts on line but it was still very much his money and formed part of his estate when he died.

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