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Intervener has submitted declaration of trusts

(42 Posts)
samanthamplified Fri 09-Dec-16 16:54:53

Hello,

So I'm in a financial remedy case against my ex-partner. His father has claimed 100% beneficial interest in 2 properties and has produced 2 declaration of trusts.

1 deed looks real, but the other looks fake.

He has not shown evidence of him providing funds to buy those properties.

Have I lost this now?

I'm 100% sure these are my ex-partner's properties.

babybarrister Fri 09-Dec-16 19:16:00

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

samanthamplified Fri 09-Dec-16 19:41:58

Hi,

Thanks for replying.

What do mean by documentary evidence of purchase? Like conveyancing documents?

Would that help? I assume they would be in my ex-partner's name anyway.

It's the declaration of trusts they've got that shows his father is the sole beneficial owner. I feel these are sham documents, but I understand it's very difficult to prove so.

Or are there other documents you're referring to?

Thanks for the advice on costs and I've breifly been made aware of this before, but I don't have much left to my name, so I'm not that bothered tbh.

I'm doing what I can for my son. It would make a huge difference to his childhood and consequently his future were he to have a stable upbringing, so it's all or nothing at the moment.

MrsBertBibby Fri 09-Dec-16 21:00:15

Who witnessed the signatures on the deeds? Could they be traced?

samanthamplified Fri 09-Dec-16 23:42:01

Hi,

For one decalaration, it was a solicitors firm that no longer practices, the main solicitor was struck off...

The other decalaration they've used their friend who has active business relationships with my ex-partner's family such as owns property with them, companies, etc. I can prove their business reationships, but I don't know if that helps anything

Also, on a side note, I just want to say thanks to everyone contributing on here, it's a real support. X

Collaborate Sat 10-Dec-16 05:36:38

The most important thing is to put them to proof of the money trail.

MrsBertBibby Sat 10-Dec-16 08:41:04

Yes, I'd agree with Collaborate, but if it were possible to show that the purported declarations weren't made at the time they claim, that would be a big help.

I take it they weren't registered. An explanation might be sought for that.

OP, this is pretty technical stuff, if you can get proper advice you really should, it's not much cop getting piecemeal advice off lawyers who can't see the whole case.

babybarrister Sat 10-Dec-16 09:41:50

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

samanthamplified Sat 10-Dec-16 09:44:40

Thanks, a few things:

1. Their proof of money trail is weak - a few bank statements produced but nothing directly showing money to acquire property coming from the father- but he has a story

2. Both ex-partner and father have shot themselves in the foot over tax - neither is paying tax on the rental income of these properties and have not done so for 10+ yaers and they're provinding proof of that, but, again, not surehow that helps

3. I'm trying to figure out how to prove the trusts weren't created at the time. One avenue I'm exploring is whether anybody was outside the country on the date it was signed. They do travel a lot. But, I'm struggling to figure out how to find this out.

4. I will be getting a barrister, but not a solicitor, can't afford both

5. The trusts were not registered an LR

6. Should asking these extra questions be done now before the hearing? Or, during the hearing? (Questions such as tax, registering at LR, etc.)

MrsBertBibby Sat 10-Dec-16 11:51:45

That's impossible to say without seeing all the papers, I'm afraid, OP.

Can you get an early meeting with the barrister? This sounds like it's make or break time, so you need to throw what resources you can at it.

babybarrister Sat 10-Dec-16 13:11:57

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

samanthamplified Tue 13-Dec-16 22:08:29

Thanks...

I'm waiting for a meeting with a barrister and I have given a bundle to one so far - getting chambers to respond to direct access requests is difficult!

I agree, it is make or break time - so I don't think I'll back down now

However, I'm also considering sending a WP letter with an offer, but I'll wait for the barrister's advice first

Thanks and I'll update you after the barrister's meeting.

Wish me luck x

MrsBertBibby Tue 13-Dec-16 22:53:46

All the best!

Collaborate Tue 13-Dec-16 23:55:14

If the property in question brings in rental income the beneficial owner of the property is whoever is receiving the rent. Get copies of the tenancy agreements, a copy of any agreement with the letting agents, an follow the money trail of the rental income. If it didn't go to the father then it would appear that your ex was the owner after all.

samanthamplified Wed 14-Dec-16 10:06:42

Thanks, that's a morale booster!

Because ex is getting all the income and not passing it on to the father, it goes straight into ex's bank accounts...

So, could this, potentially, override the declaration of trusts?

Collaborate Wed 14-Dec-16 16:34:44

It might be evidence that the trusts are a sham to conceal the true ownership from the divorce courts.

MrsBertBibby Wed 14-Dec-16 20:19:10

Do the rents show up in your husband's tax returns?

samanthamplified Wed 14-Dec-16 20:54:56

@MrsBertBibby Nope

babybarrister Thu 15-Dec-16 10:28:32

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

samanthamplified Thu 15-Dec-16 15:32:04

@babybarrister - Thanks, to get this, is it just a simple letter requesting it sent to his solicitor? Or do I need to make a D11 application?

Thanks

MrsBertBibby Thu 15-Dec-16 19:59:58

Hmm, you want to flush out that info? If fil is paying tax on the rent it inclines more towards the properties being him, not your H's.

samanthamplified Fri 16-Dec-16 14:04:52

@ MrsBertBibby: Thanks for pointing that out I didn't think of it, but I'm thinking of taking the gamble...

Do I just ask for it in a simple letter or do I need to submit a D11 application asking for standard disclosure?

babybarrister Fri 16-Dec-16 14:33:47

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrsBertBibby Fri 16-Dec-16 14:43:29

Thing is, it can only hurt you. So far you can see the money going to H, but not being declared.

If you demonstrate the fil does declare it, that weakens your case.
If you demonstrate he doesn't, your case is no stronger than before.

I can't see that this can produce an argument that helps, and it might produce evidence that harm you.

samanthamplified Fri 16-Dec-16 14:44:35

Really? That's interesting!

So what happens if they're not? Can the judge refer it to HMRC?

Shall I just ask for it in a letter? Or do I need an order?

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