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Does ds father have PR?

(20 Posts)
youarenotkiddingme Thu 28-Jul-16 08:34:58

I'll give background but don't want to give too many identifying feature iyswim?

Ds born abroad. Father and I unmarried and had to sign something in front of judge to both say we are parents and both be named on BC.

I always assumed his father had PR. He's had to sign for passport and sign to agree his change of name by deed poll. It was to surname we wanted to give him at birth but couldn't register him with it due to surname laws where he was registered.

Ds has seen his father since 2007. He hasn't bothered with contact at all, not even the twice yearly phone calls at birthday and Christmas or even sending a gift for over a year now.

I'm not bothered if his father has PR or not because up til now as DS lives solely with me no ones ever questioned me making decisions alone.

But I believe there could be issues for example if DS and I wanted to travel abroad for a period of time?

All the information I can find online says he has PR because of date of birth but always states if on a English or Welsh BC.
Ds birth certificate is Spanish. (Born in Tenerife)

Anyone have any information about this or know if there is some paperwork I can get that allows me to make decisions alone?

youarenotkiddingme Thu 28-Jul-16 08:35:53

Hasn't seen him since 2007

Biscetti Thu 28-Jul-16 08:49:13

My child was born in Spain in 2007. We were not married. DC has a Spanish BC and father does not have PR because we were not married. My lawyer told me this in 2013 when we returned to the UK. DC's surname was changed at and I obviously needed to check this fact before going ahead with it.

youarenotkiddingme Thu 28-Jul-16 08:56:36

That's interesting. Thank you. Did you both have to sign something before fathers name went on BC?
Interestingly a solicitor in Tenerife told me before I came home I didn't need permission as DS is British by birth and I'm mother so have PR.

Maybe it's worthwhile me seeing if I can see a solicitor and find out my legal position and get something in writing?

PolterGoose Thu 28-Jul-16 09:14:15

Except for major decisions or where there's conflict one parent with PR can make a decision unilaterally. So, going on holiday is fine, emigrating to Australia would need agreement.

I believe you (as a person with PR) and your ds have a legal right to apply to have the father's PR removed but this is very rare.

CannotEvenDeal Thu 28-Jul-16 09:17:02

Do you have any contact details for him?

Biscetti Thu 28-Jul-16 09:21:30

Nope, nothing was signed before birth was registered/certificate and Libro de Familia were sorted.

Basically I/my child can do wtf we want without any need for his permission. Haven't seen him for 3 years, not does he make any effort to contact DC. Could be dead for all I know or care winkgrin

MrsBertBibby Thu 28-Jul-16 09:23:47

It isn't in fact OK to take a child out of the country on holiday without permission of all others with PR. Unless you have a residence order, in which case up to 28 days does not require agreement.

How a non contact parent would know about a holiday abroad is an entirely different question.

youarenotkiddingme Thu 28-Jul-16 09:26:58

No contact details. Well unless you count FB but I'm rarely on there on I'm sure he rarely turns up there either.

We had a group chat set up with me and his family where I kept them updated and sent photos. I posted when DS got his dx of autism and not one single person has posted on it since. So neither have I posted again.

iys never been questioned iyswim? I signed the dx letter alone and le father bit blank and no one battered an eye lid. Same for contact details in school. I just leave it blank.

youarenotkiddingme Thu 28-Jul-16 09:29:31

I've had no issues up til now taking DS on holiday. I hope I have none when we go away again in a few weeks. But I guess it's always in the back of my mind that they could ask?

Maybe I could carry a copy of DS BC if that in fact shows his father doesn't have PR by pure nature of us being unmarried and it not being British?

PolterGoose Thu 28-Jul-16 09:30:04

Ok, fair enough. As the father is in another country he's not going to know anyway. I don't think in reality most parents ask permission from absent parents, do they?

It's wrong that someone who has no actual parenting responsibilities can have that right to veto.

PolterGoose Thu 28-Jul-16 09:32:14

The fact he's on the BC and ds was born after December 2013 (when the PR for unmarried dads law changed) means that, from my understanding, he is considered to have PR under UK law. It doesn't matter that the birth was registered abroad.

PolterGoose Thu 28-Jul-16 09:32:36

December 2003 not 2013

CannotEvenDeal Thu 28-Jul-16 09:34:31

Yes I totally agree PolterGoose The 'power' without having responsibility confused

My dh's exw disappeared abroad and ignores all form of communication, including registered mail. Luckily I am named on the residence order so can travel for up to month with my dss if I want to. I've never been stopped but I carry a copy with the RO just in case.

In the grand scheme of things for OP what would the border staff do if there is no real way of contacting the boy's bio father...?

youarenotkiddingme Thu 28-Jul-16 10:53:20

It's exactly that. The worry I may get stopped and may be prevented from travelling or making decisions for my DS. And all because his father cba to actually be a father.

Collaborate Thu 28-Jul-16 11:07:19

There's some wrong advice on this thread.

A father will only have PR by virtue of being in the birth certificate if the child was born in the UK, and consequently there is a UK BC.

Whatever rights the father may have under Spanish law, he has no PR rights under English law.

It's all contained in s4 of the Children Act:

4 Acquisition of parental responsibility by father.

(1)Where a child’s father and mother were not married to each other at the time of his birth, the father shall acquire parental responsibility for the child if—

(a)he becomes registered as the child’s father under any of the enactments specified in subsection (1A);

(b)he and the child’s mother make an agreement (a “parental responsibility agreement”) providing for him to have parental responsibility for the child; or

(c)the court, on his application, orders that he shall have parental responsibility for the child.

(1A)The enactments referred to in subsection (1)(a) are—

(a)paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) of section 10(1) and of section 10A(1) of the Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953;

(b)paragraphs (a), (b)(i) and (c) of section 18(1), and sections 18(2)(b) and 20(1)(a) of the Registration of Births, Deaths and Marriages (Scotland) Act 1965; and

(c)sub-paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) of Article 14(3) of the Births and Deaths Registration (Northern Ireland) Order 1976.

Biscetti Thu 28-Jul-16 11:13:57

Thanks Collaborate that's pretty much what I was told re my DC.

youarenotkiddingme Thu 28-Jul-16 11:16:07

Thanks collaborate so as we live in Uk does that mean we are covered by Uk law which means he has no PR?

Gini99 Thu 28-Jul-16 11:21:12

I agree with Collaborate that there is a great deal of wrong advice on this thread and that the 'birth certificate gives PR rule' in the Children Act (the part she quotes above) only applies to UK birth certificates. So he doesn't get PR through s4 Children Act.

However, I don't think that means he definitely doesn't have PR. It would depend on where your DS was 'habitually resident' at birth. If he was habitually resident in Spain and Spanish law recognised the father as having PR then it is my understanding that he would still have PR when you switched to living in the UK. That is because we apply this convention Article 16 of which says:

Article 16

(1) The attribution or extinction of parental responsibility by operation of law, without the intervention of a judicial or administrative authority, is governed by the law of the State of the habitual residence of the child.

(2) The attribution or extinction of parental responsibility by an agreement or a unilateral act, without intervention of a judicial or administrative authority, is governed by the law of the State of the child's habitual residence at the time when the agreement or unilateral act takes effect.

(3) Parental responsibility which exists under the law of the State of the child's habitual residence subsists after a change of that habitual residence to another State.

(4) If the child's habitual residence changes, the attribution of parental responsibility by operation of law to a person who does not already have such responsibility is governed by the law of the State of the new habitual residence.

If you really need to know whether he has PR then I think you would need a specialist lawyer who worked on cross-border cases and had access to a reliable source on Spanish law.

Collaborate Thu 28-Jul-16 19:19:31

Useful know, Gini99. Thanks.

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