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So WTF will happen if I take the children out of the jurisdiction without EXTOAD's consent?

(81 Posts)
Karenthetoadslayer Wed 06-Aug-14 15:20:14

We are atm trying very hard to negotiate a settlement with exP. He has been very obstructive so far and purposely refused to deal with matters, such as the sale of the family home until the summer holidays, so we cannot go away. He suddenly became very active on 21st July. He has also forbidden us to go and see our family in mainland Europe. It would be great if the children could at least visit their grandparents while I am dealing with matters, as opposed to having to sit at home. I have signed undertakings to be available for the sale of the house, so I am stuck here, because we are in occupation, but the children should not have to be.

So what would happen if I chose to ignore him and put the kids on a plane so they can have a great time on the beach with their grandparents who have a seaside home? Would I get arrested?

titchy Wed 06-Aug-14 15:26:48

They may get turned round at the border, so you'd have wasted their fare.

Cheaper to get a specific issue order from court.

Karenthetoadslayer Wed 06-Aug-14 15:35:43

How much is the specific issue order and how will border control know about this?

Karenthetoadslayer Wed 06-Aug-14 15:38:55

I mean how will border control know that they are not allowed to leave the country?

prh47bridge Wed 06-Aug-14 17:37:05

I mean how will border control know that they are not allowed to leave the country?

In order to take a child out of the country you need the consent of everyone with PR unless you have a court order giving you residence. If you do not have that consent you are committing the criminal offence of child abduction. Border control therefore know that no child is allowed to leave the country with one parent unless there is evidence that the other parent consents or an appropriate court order is in place.

justiceofthePeas Wed 06-Aug-14 17:39:21

prh not dpubting that you are legally correct but in practisr no one asked me as an lp last time I took my kids on holiday

DrankSangriaInThePark Wed 06-Aug-14 17:47:50

prh is right. It's not a question of knowing they are not allowed to leave the country. It's a question of ensuring all responsible adults know they are.

And silly anecdotes about never having been stopped are ingenuous at best, and downright dangerous at worst.

(I am happily in a partnership and dd and I are flying to the UK tomorrow, and I have just printed out dp's consent letter. We last flew in July and I was asked at 3 different borders (Italy/Germany/UK) for the parental consent letter. (just to even up the anecdotes)

OP- you could get arrested for cross border child abduction.

LadyLuck81 Wed 06-Aug-14 17:51:08

Sangria is right about the risk. Get his consent in writing or go to court for an order. If he's being obstructive it would be daft to risk sending them without doing things properly.

Karenthetoadslayer Wed 06-Aug-14 20:33:39

Even though Toad's name is not on their passports?

Karenthetoadslayer Wed 06-Aug-14 20:35:17

This is just a theory, btw, I would not actually do that which would be a stupid risk to take. Not because I think it would be wrong, but because of the risk of getting arrested. Morally speaking, I don't think he has any rights over the children. angry

justiceofthePeas Wed 06-Aug-14 20:40:02

drank apologies for my silly anecdotehmm
I did say I thought prh was correct. I merely said I had never been asked. I should have added I didn't know I needed x permission to go on holiday as I am rp.

There is no way he would cooperate even thpugh he knows I am not going to abduct them. So presumably I cannot go on holiday abroad again without some kind of letter from court.shock

I did not say so on you go op.

Karenthetoadslayer Wed 06-Aug-14 20:53:02

I think if you are rp you don't have to have a letter. If you have residency, that is sufficient - at least that is what I have been told and you can take the DCs out of the country for 2 weeks without letting your xp know?

We have not crossed that bridge yet and this is why he can deny permission so far.

fortheloveof01 Wed 06-Aug-14 21:21:32

If you have a residence order (or a child arrangement order as they are now known stating you are the resident parent), you can take the children out of the country for 1 month without the consent of the other party. If they have your exP's name, take some kind of official document which links your name to theirs. I too have travelled extensively with my dd and never obtained permission from her father, simply made him aware of our intention to travel with times/dates etc. I was recently at court regarding a contact arrangement and the judge categorically said there is now no legal document specifying that a child can travel with one parent or the other, it's down to residence or written consent of the other parent where residence is not clearly defined. Hope this helps.

Karenthetoadslayer Wed 06-Aug-14 21:31:42

This is very interesting, fortheloveof01, very helpful. Therefore if the nr parent has been evicted from the family home it is clear that I am the rp and therefore I would not need the nrp's permission, as he is not allowed near the DCs anyway?

Karenthetoadslayer Wed 06-Aug-14 21:36:43

But if you have to show a document at the border, what do you show?

DS does not have to have his permission, as he was born in 1999 and I have actually travelled with him alone before DD was born. It had not even crossed my mind at the time that I would need permission.

fortheloveof01 Wed 06-Aug-14 21:44:04

As long as you have a residence order (or CAO) showing you are the resident parent then that will be fine. I always take dd's birth certificate which has my surname on it and that has always been adequate. Your ex could always apply to the court for an emergency CAO (used to be called a Prohibitive Steps Order) to prevent you removing them from the country and if he does, and is successful, you would definitely be in contempt of court if you remove them. I regularly take dd to France and am always questioned about our relationship as we have different surnames. Her birth certificate has always satisfied the authorities at both ends of the journey.

Karenthetoadslayer Wed 06-Aug-14 21:50:37

His name is not on their passports and they don't have the same nationality so there is no way he could take them anywhere. Only my name is on their passports. I must find out if the fact that they are living with me is sufficient. If not, we will have to apply for residency to get that document. He has only recently tried to have contact with the children and has not seen them since November of last year; I hope I will get permission to take them at least on holiday to their home country. Fortunately they both have valid passports!

DrankSangriaInThePark Wed 06-Aug-14 21:55:17

You need a consent letter (not a residence order) even if you are together and only one parent is taking the child out of the country.

They can be downloaded from website.

Karenthetoadslayer Wed 06-Aug-14 22:02:09

I am not getting that consent letter voluntarily, so it's back to court for the residence order.

DrankSangriaInThePark Wed 06-Aug-14 22:49:11

Sorry, lawdepot I think the site is called.

Just because you haven't been stopped when travelling alone yet doesn't mean you won't be. Sometimes I am, sometimes I'm not. When I last asked the Border Agency guy at passport control he said more and more minors travelling with just one adult will be stopped and before long it will become mandatory to carry a letter of consent.

elastamum Wed 06-Aug-14 23:01:34

If you are a separated resident parent you don't need the other parents permission to take your children out of the country. I have travelled all over the world with mine, EU, US, Australia and have never had or been asked for a permission letter. Only once have I been asked if I can prove the children were mine (different surnames) and that was on the way back into the UK off a Mark Warner charter flight - apparently it was a for 'child protection' purposes, although the border control officer was at a loss to explain what the risk he was talking about was - as we were going home hmm

Karenthetoadslayer Thu 07-Aug-14 00:02:46

When the DCs were small and had their children's passports, these were not independent passports anyway, but sort of annexes to my passport. I think this is why I did not encounter the problem at the time.

Thing is that the border control will not know that you are a separated resident parent who does not need a letter of consent, so in any event it is probably better to have an order / consent letter, as I will clearly be one patent travelling on my own with the DCs.

What if there is "no dad" for whatever reason? Would you take the birth certificate with you?

prh47bridge Thu 07-Aug-14 00:03:34

Therefore if the nr parent has been evicted from the family home it is clear that I am the rp and therefore I would not need the nrp's permission

I'm afraid that is wrong. Unless you have a residence order in your favour or a child arrangement order that gives you residence you need the consent of everyone with PR. The fact that your children live with you and he does not is not enough to give you the legal right to take them out of the country without his consent.

If you are a separated resident parent you don't need the other parents permission to take your children out of the country

That advice is not only wrong, it is dangerously wrong. If you do not have a residence order or a child arrangement order giving you residence you are committing a criminal offence (child abduction) if you take your child out of the country unless you have the consent of everyone with PR. Even if the OP manages to get past border controls her ex would be perfectly entitled to report her to the police if he finds out she has taken the children abroad and she could face arrest and prosecution.

worridmum Thu 07-Aug-14 00:11:36

prh47bridge is totall correct my brothers ex wife emigrated to New Zealand without my brothers consent (lied and said it was a 3 week holiday which he did consent to but not full blown emigration) the court took a very very dim view of her and stripped her of main residency and basically now only shes her children via a contact centre as she was prosicuted for child abduction.

Karenthetoadslayer Thu 07-Aug-14 00:15:03

Thought so, it sounded too good to be true and too easy. wine

So I have to take him to court about it. I don't suppose he can keep this up, if he does not have a valid reason other than being a racist or spite, not to let us go and visit my parents or go on holiday.

He has of course been on holiday himself, as I saw on the info attached to his E1. [anger]

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