Absent DV ex (with PR)can turn up and take kids out of school without my permission

[FullySwindonian]

Not entirely sure which board to post this on...

I learnt today that my chikdren's father who I finally left after 7 years of DV - taking a toddler and 4 week old with me - has every right to turn up to their school and take them away, because he has Parental Responsibility (named on their birth certs).

By providing his ID, school says he can do this. The only way to prevent it is by taking out an injunction against him.

But it's been 5 years since I left. Although he continued the DV for a couple of years after I left when he visited the hideous a couple of times a year, it eventually dwindled out about two years ago to just vicious emails and texts, all of them threatening. There's been no contact since. Well, until he made a Facebook profile the other week and uploaded hundreds of publicly viewable photos of the kids and friend requested me and all my other Facebook friends.

Given the DV was so long ago, is it still possible to get an injunction?
He's opened an access case against me last year but he failed to attend mediation or co-operate with any solicitor advice. Given the time span,nthe fact he's never bonded with the youngest, and that we are now settled as a family, how can he just come back into our lives, and take them away from school as he pleases?

Would he have to bring them back after a few hours, a weekend, or never...amd I end up going to court to get them back? Talk about repeating history, this is what happened to me as a toddler. My bio dad and his mother kidnapped me from my mum and she took a year in court to get me back.

Summarily, what basis would an injunction have now? His previous threats stated he'd try to take them off me specifically to make me suffer, so he has proved himself vindictive.

[DuckyMoDuckyMoMo]

My LO's father threatened this, my solicitor advised me that I'd file emergency application with the court ASAP and get it seen ASAP most likely that day, they would then order my LO back and I could get an injunction upon him and any application he may file for contact this would ensure it that it would be in a contact centre in defiantly or until he could be trusted

[somedayillbesaturdaynite]

It's a Prohibited Steps Order, I have one and it states he cannot have dc aside from access agreed by me (this covers school pick ups etc) Mine was issued after requesting during children's proceedings

[somedayillbesaturdaynite]

I had told my solicitor that I wanted whichever order was necessary should he pick dc up from school so that I could call police on 999 and get them returned immediately without returning to court.

[LadySybilLikesCake]

You need to seek legal advice. From what I can remember PR isn't the same as residency or contact. Parental Responsibility just means that he has a say in the important things in your child's life, like where they go to school and which GP they have. It doesn't mean he can go to their school and take them without your consent.

[Spero]

Ladysybil is right - PR does NOT give you the right to interfere with the ordinary day to day running of the children's lives, if they live primarily with the other parent. PR is about recognising your legal status as a parent and giving you the legal right to be consulted and informed about major issues such as education, medical treatment, religious observances etc, etc.

BUT the problem arises if both parents have PR and neither has a child arrangements order - the law changed on April 22nd with the Children and Families Act 2014 and residence and contact orders have been replaced by child arrangement orders.

The police and schools are often reluctant to act to stop one parent taking the children if the parent has parental responsibility and there isn't any other order in place.

If you are worried, I think you should apply to court for either a child arrangement order which provides that the children live with you OR a prohibited steps order to say he can't take them out of your care. Then you can say to the school that he isn't allowed to take them and give them a copy of the order.

You may not be able to get any legal aid anymore given that last episode of DV was a long time ago, but you would need to speak to a specialist solicitor about that.

If you want to make an application to the court by yourself, there is some advice here
www.childprotectionresource.org.uk/what-if-i-dont-have-a-lawyer/

[FullySwindonian]

Thankyou everyone, that's all so helpful.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

I took legal advice on this from the other side (I run children's activities & a mum wanted me to prevent her estranged exp from bring able to collect the children

I was told that I had no legal right to do so. In normal circumstances if someone tried to forcibly remove a child from my class id phone 999 but I was told the police would not be able to do anything unless there was a court order in place. The only recourse I had was if I had reasonable grounds to believe the children were in danger eg I could refuse to let them go in a car with a drunk parent.

So if I were you I'd get onto a solicitor.

[lostdad]

The school has no right to prevent a parent with PR removing a child from school. It doesn't matter who the children spend most of the time with. It doesn't matter if there is a Child Arrangements Order in place.

None of this trumps PR.

Is it a good idea if your ex does this though? No. It's a very bad idea.

If you have genuine concern that he will do this you may consider applying for a Prohibited Steps Order that will limit the above.

The only way the police can get involved too is for a Recovery Order (C3) and a Emergenct Order (C18) to be in place. Otherwise it is purely a civil matter and the police cannot do anything other than to ensure that the child is save. I am aware that the police DO sometimes try or suggest they can do otherwise but there is no legal basis for them doing this.

Regarding the change in the law (Children and Families Act 2014 that came in last week) - there is now no such thing as residence or contact orders. If you have an order before the change came in your order is effectively automatically converted to one so if the children are with you a majority of the time you are the parent with whom the children live with.

None the less, as I say above none of this impinges on PR and the only legal route you have to stop him doing this is to apply for a PSO.

[Spero]

Sorry lost dad - i disagree. I have got residence orders for clients precisely because it will stop another parent removing the child from the care of that parent - PR is not licence to act unilaterally and in breach of a court order.

I assume the new orders will now simply be Child Arrangement orders specifying the child lives with one parent - I would expect the school to respect that and the police to take action with regard to breach of it.

[Spero]

To be clear, by 'police action' the police have acted for clients of mine to help prevent a breach of the peace and have returned a child when a residence order was in place. But when there was no residence order, they have simply said it is a civil matter and they can't interfere between two parents both with PR unless the child is at risk of harm and they exercise their powers of police protection.

But I agree, for belt and braces protection, a prohibited steps order that sets out very clearly who may or may not take the child out of your care gives you the best protection, with no room for any misunderstanding or misinterpretation.

[3xcookedchips]

Last weekend my daughter lived with me...this weekend my daughter is not living me?

Last weekend she had two homes...this weekend she has one?

[Spero]

I have on numerous occasions applied for and been granted a residence order to prevent removal from school. The parent with the order sends a copy to the school and discusses it with them; the school make a note that no one but the parent takes the child out of school.

I agree that if simply a residence order turned up on the HT desk they might be a bit confused as to what it means - but then schools seem generally hopeless at understanding PR and are constantly refusing my male clients any information for example! When a parent with PR is fully entitled to school reports etc.

If you are worried then yes, get a PSO but I fundamentally disagree that PR gives any parent a licence to do whatever they want whenever they want and I have experience of a residence order being a good safeguard.

However, the new Child Arrangements Order I find quite confusing and it is now even less clear (in my opinion) what it means. So probably from now on I will have to get a PSO as belt and braces.

[lostdad]

Spero - yes, I have known police using a breach of the peace to remove a child too. That offence has no relation to the Children Act and in my experience is a convenient way of implementing a removal without a Removal Order - the police deal with an agitated parent in a stressful situation who then does something to warrant (in theory) arrest. The child is then returned to the other parent.

Whatever happens to the arrested parent (often released without charge) is then irrelevant...it's a fait accompli. I have known this situation to happen and have advised clients as the police have been banging on the door and officers seeking to provoke a reaction to justify an arrest.

Nonetheless this has no bearing on the Children Act.

[Meglet]

My solicitor told me that if XP took the kids the police would get involved. They are total strangers to each other and he's never parented them and he would need to go via a contact centre.

Although she did give me duff info on changing surnames, ie; they can't even when abuse was involved. But I've since learnt that the courts will look at the evidence and can double barrel surnames without consulting the absent parent. So I possibly wasted £200 on her. She's a family lawyer too .

[UseHerName]

I sought legal advice on exactly the same issue. my solicitor advised that if the school handed a child out to someone thst neither the school nor the child knew, even if it was dad with pr and id, then they'd be in a precarious legal position themselves.

she said family law is fluid and the interpretation of it depends on the individual child's situation. she also said that thay interpretation was to be done by the court and it did NOT give mr m (the principle) carte blanche to interprete it as he saw fit

she said the best practice in this situation is to phone the resident parent and get the other parent with pr to wait. poss the police as well depending on the disposition/attitude of non resident parent

she siad as much in a letter to the principle

don't suppose you're in n.ireland are you?

how stressful for you!

seek legal advice and get a legal letter to the principle reminding them of their obligation to protect your child