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School holiday fines - is this man correct?(21 Posts)
I am a member of a Facebook group opposing school holiday fines. Another member regularly posts to say if you don't sign the request for permission form, you don't enter into a contract with the school/ LEA and therefore they can't fine you, as it is a civil matter rather than a criminal matter.
Now, of course, lots of other members are planning on not filling out their permission forms, just phoning up and telling the school that they are removing their children for a holiday. They think they aren't going to get fined, or they can ignore the fines if they happen.
Example: "Civil law is only enforceable by consent. If you fill in a request form, you are entering into contract and no doubt be refused. Don't fill it in or request. Just go away . Let them know you are going and have no choice ! Don't supply them with detailed info, just let them know out of common decency , maybe ask if they would like you to take some work with you if poss. If later they bully you with potential fine: write a letter explaining that you are not refusing to pay a fine, but require a proof of consent or contract under civil law and the bill of rights act."
Is this correct or is he talking nonsense?
See here for legal basis, there is no need for any contractual relationship with the school. The Bill of Rights is American, entirely irrelevant in England.
Sorry, there is in fact a 1689 bill of rights in england that is sometimes cited in constitutional arguments but it seems completely irrelevant to these circumstances.
Agree with fuckwittery.
The Haringey page is a bit rubbish on capitalisation, punctuation and names! There isn't an Anti-Behaviour Act!
The relevant legislation is the Anti-Social Behaviour Act 2003 S23, Education Act 1996 S444 and the Education (Penalty Notices) (England) Regulations 2007 (which replaced the 2004 regulations to which Haringey refer).
There is actually a Bill of Rights Act dating back to 1688 but it is entirely irrelevant. No proof of consent or contract is required for the penalty notice to be effective.
If someone were to respond as this person suggests the fine would automatically double 21 days after it was issued. If the parent still failed to pay they could be taken to court.
Perhaps you should encourage this person to take the same approach when they receive a fixed penalty notice for speeding! After all, according to him all he has to do is say that he doesn't consent to the speed limit nor has he entered into any contract to obey it.
I suspect this person has found out that parking fines from private companies are usually unenforceable and thinks the same applies to fines for unauthorised holidays.
There is a big difference between a car park operator attempting to take action against you for breach of contract (which is what those "fines" are) and a proper fixed penalty notice issued by someone legally entitled to do so in respect of an action which is legally an offence. As far as school holiday fines are concerned, the fixed penalty notice is an alternative to taking the parents to court where they could receive a much heavier fine or be imprisoned.
The provision for fines is in national law (Antisocial Behaviour Act) and so 'contract' with the school is irrelevant. By choosing state schooling, you have to abide by relevant laws.
If you do not pay, you can be taken to court (expect the penalty to rise to c £2k) and if you do not pay, you can be imprisoned (and this has happened under the last government).
That's weird because I can't find any news stories about it happening to real parents (fined how much or imprisoned).
Imprisonment is rare (most cough up when the courts start being involved) but it has happened.
Here's the Guardian on the first parent sent to prison under these powers in 2004.
If you google, you'll find others.
The fact that you have already enrolled your child into a school means a contract has already been entered. A lot of schools also have home school agreements which get signed when the child first starts at the school.
Haha, I love the pseudo legal claptrap Dickheads with too much time on their hands spout.
The other members are holding him in esteem as a fountain of knowledge. I am not very clever in legal matters but I thought it's got to be bullshit. I am using some of the information provided here (and have fessed up that it hasn't come from me). Thanks.
"This law is not common law , only civil law/ legislation or in other words a legal " act " passed in parliament . You can only enforce civil law with the " consent " of the persons involved , and you MUST also have the legal right to appeal! So it's quite simple: you respectufully do not consent. And unless the school can produce a contract you have signed consenting to this law then under civil law you cannot be prosecuted or fined...."
The basic mistake he is making is in thinking there is no Act passed by Parliament.
Perhaps you could point out that there is?
I think meditrina he is saying that it is "only" an act of parliament and by his reasoning you could never be fined or prosecuted for anything unless it arose in common or contract law..... Basically a pile of crap.
My speed limit example comes to mind. That is not common law. So by his argument you can only enforce speed limits if the driver consents. If you don't consent to the speed limit you can drive around at any speed you want and they can't fine you.
As fuckwittery says, a pile of crap.
lljkk - In 2011/12 (the most recent academic year for which statistics are available) schools issued 41,224 penalty notices and 6,361 cases led to parents being prosecuted for non-payment. It may not get much publicity but it definitely happens.
We have had a barrage from him overnight. And people are believing him, because they want it to be true. They think he is a God and they can opt out of the fines.
"The council and goverment are liars!!!! They extort money every day illegally! They are cut throat. The council claimed I parked on council property therefore recieved a fine. When it was pointed out to them that: " council CANNOT & DO NOT OWN PROPERTY! They are an elected bunch of people, elected by us the public! And that council own no land or property because its held in trust and owned by the British public. And pointed out that I don't feel the need ask to park on property which I OWN! also that I respectfully decline to contract, but am willing to pay the fine if they produce a contract to the court and proof of loss, injury or harm? Nothing! Case closed."
"Do you really think logistically local goverments could take thousands of parents to court? Lol they couldn't afford it!! It's extortion , goverment bodies don't own my children!
I see daily in my job, people with " court bailiffs " turning up at there house, accompanied by police. The police are there to " prevent breach of peace" THAT'S IT!
These baliffs turn up with liability orders & court warrants. Admitidly some people just let them in! Mostly for non payment of council tax! BUT! And its a very big but.. All these warrants etc are not " signed " by any judge! They are purely rubber stamped by a court. No trial, no appeal , no proof of claim even!! The reason is simple: it is totally unlawful for that baliff to be there without consent from YOU! And no sain judge will ever sign in wet black ink on that warrant because they KNOW IT!! They would then be commiting fraud and be personally liable for fine and/ or imprisonment! Because fraud comes under common law! There is no common law that states you must pay council tax even! And if your brave you won't have to . Please show me where is consented to it?? Lol I do choose to pay it mind, because I feel it's the decent thing to do. But you get my point? Just because these bankers, councils, goverments say you MUST! doesn't mean it's true! There are thousands of people waking up , fighting and winning these types of battles xx"
He can't spell either.
Maybe time to step away from that group rather than waste time arguing with someone like that.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
Yes, time to step away. I have urged them to check out the qualifications of people they are taking advice from. But it's pointless.
I think i'd leave that group if I were you....
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