so how do you sleep at night?

[Heathcliffscathy]

Since we invaded Iraq:

24,865 iraqi civilians have been killed. That's mothers, daughters, sons and fathers. And it's almost 0.1 percent of the entire population.

10% were under 18 years old

And 'the coalition' killed 9270 of them.

I can't sleep at night cause of this. I live in London and love London and hate what happened last week but it makes it look pathetic in comparison doesn't it?

I CAN'T sleep at night because of this. There are plenty of atrocities happening around the world as I write. But this one is done in my name. Even though I marched and even though I didn't vote Labour (because of this issue primarily), this is done in my name because I am British and proud of it.

The Americans and the British are saying that it's not their job to count up civilian deaths. What does that say to the Muslim populations of the world given how painstakingly and rightly so they have been counting our dead in London this last week? And Mr Blair dares to say that this atrocity, whereby 4 British kids blew themselves up to kill people has nothing to do with Iraq?

How do you sleep? How can we stop this? How dare we debate Muslims' attitudes to us when we are doing this to them?

[dinny]

"4 British kids"? er, how are a 30 year old and 22 year old KIDS??!

[Heathcliffscathy]

in my book a 22 year old is a kid. oh sorry, ,they are the devil i forgot

[hunkermunker]

What should we do then? Accept that there will be bombs in this country and what? Enjoy them?!

[nutcracker]

They weren't kids though were they.


Would you class you average white 22 and 30 year old as kids ?

[CountessDracula]

Maybe we should stop panting along at the heels of the self appointed watchdog of the world and get on with our lives and some important stuff like stopping thousands of children in Africa starve to death every day.

[misdee]

i sleep very well, thanks.


of course we are worried about whats going on in the world, but i need to sleep.

and a 22yr old and 30 year old are not kids. i'm only 25.

[Heathcliffscathy]

absolutely not hunker, but surely looking at the motivations for those that would die to harm us is important. and denying a massive motivating factor is just sh*t isn't it? i'm not saying policy should be defined by what terrorists want (decent humanity might help rather than interests of mutinational oil corps), but the only way to combat terrorism is to cut it off at the knees: if there is no support then the movement dies.

[Hulababy]

These were not children who carried out the acts of terrorism on innocent people; they were 4 grown, adult men.

I am not saying what is happenign anywhere else in the world is right, but let's not trivialise what happened in London by clalling those responsible kids - a term which itself evokes images of sweet innocents playing games.

[leonardodavinci]

I don't understand what you are getting at. There are a lot of terrible goingson every day in our lives but if we worry about ebery single one we would be copnstantly depressed. There have been many times in history where the British approach has been to get on with life(not forgetting the bad things and not forgetting the lives that have been lost) and use humour to cope with such catastrophes: witness Dad's Army. Yes it is awful, and yes we are all affected because we are compassionate human beings I hope, but we do have to live our lives and strive to gain strength each day and move on. If we let everything affect us I think we would be constantly down in the weeds. And yes I was extremely angry when this happened and very tearful because of the waste of beautiful people for nothing. what we can do. Yes and no it has to do with Iraq but we do have to rise above this evil face of mankind and be ever loving to each other, if anything it makes one feel no hatred towards anyone, even in the supermarket when someone is dithering. Very wrong but we must sleep at night and not hate anyone but focus on only good and rid of this stupid nonsense.

[Heathcliffscathy]

if i didn't laugh at you all i would weep. of all the things i said the only thing you home in on (apart from you countess of loveliness) is the age of the suicide bombers???? we're really f*cked then.

[Hulababy]

I do sleep.

BUT I also do worry about the state of our worls, and what we are all, including/especially the Governments of those countries worst affected by the horrors happening every day. I can vote, I can complain, I can support charities. I do care.

But I also care a hell of a lot what happened in London... and to somehow trivalise it (as I read your first post's comment - rightly or wrongly) seems wrong.

[leonardodavinci]

laugh at who sophable?

[Heathcliffscathy]

how is caring about, being sad for young men that would give their lives for something they believed in, misguidedly but wrongly trivialising it! ffs.

[hunkermunker]

I agree that looking at the motivation of those who would blow themselves up is very important.

The ones whose motivations we need to look at are those who brainwashed them into taking those bombs into London (I don't believe the bombers knew they weren't coming back from London that day though).

I agree that it's totally fucked that Britain and America are killing hundreds of people and then complaining loudly that tens of people have been killed here - but I also feel that the one thing people could have done (ie not vote for Blair) wasn't - and he now feels he has carte blanche to behave as he wants.

Mind you, I don't think he'll be so quick to follow Bush again after the snubbings he got at G8 from that particular chimp!

[toodarnhot]

hmmmm....very naughty of you sophable- how could you refer to those suicide bombers as kids?

along side that crime against humanity i'd say 'smart' bombing tens of thousands of civilians to death rather pales into insignificance.

not.

[QueenOfQuotes]

What I think is appalling is how they 'dont count' the civillian dead in a country we invaded, but we're they're quite 'happy' to say how many 1000's of children/people die each day of starvation in Africa............but then they do sod all about that too.

[nutcracker]

Sophable, I will admitt that half the time I am not clued up on the goings on regarding war and terorism, but tbh I think I find some of your posts offensive.

Just because we all can sleep at night does not mean we don't care, or aren't interested.

[paolosgirl]

Crikey, if I thought about all the atrocities being committed all around the world, I'd never sleep.
But then again, I didn't vote for Blair. How many of you did?

[Hulababy]

I meant calling them kids. But, as I say, maybe I read it the wrong way.

But I am not arguing about it, or getting into some big debate about it right now.

I care...you care. We may show it in different ways, that's all.

[Heathcliffscathy]

christ hunker. thank f*ck for that. thought i was surrounded by the.....errr.....shortsighted???? to be polite?

[bubble99]

Difficult one this, sophable. I totally agree with your comments about Iraqi deaths and the, let's face it, lies we were told about the reasons for invasion. WMD? Not true IMO, and if true, no more WMD than Syria. Oppressive dictator? Try Mugabe, except that he doesn't happen to control 40% of the world's oil reserves. Bush sponsored by oil companies, their oil reserves declining, voters want petrol = Saddam Hussein, opressive tyrant who happens to have control of huge amounts of oil = Invasion.

It must also be noted that Islam is a fundamentally evangelical religion and in the hands of extremists this can translate to a wish for world domination. An Islamic world.

Did they kill/die to draw attention to the atrocities which were carried out in our name on behalf of Shell Oil or in pursuit of a long term plan for an Islamic world population?

[QueenOfQuotes]

I didn't Paolo - and I've been a 'staunch' Labour supporter all my life.

[toodarnhot]

ah yes...motivation...let us examine the motivation.

can't conceivably be anything to do with Iraq can it tony?

i mean it must be brain washing and "evil" (oooh er...shudder) ideology ...not people outraged and desperate and impotent in the face of relentless slaughter of muslims.

[Heathcliffscathy]

be offended then nutcracker. by what exactly btw? your post makes it sound like you've been waiting for an excuse to say that, but i may be wrong

[Jimjams]

agree hunker...