So, if you'll pour hot wax onto your privates - how far would you go?(22 Posts)
I didn't contribute to [http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/2724/852877-to-think-that-Brazilian-waxes-are-NOT-the-norm-Or this] thread on pubic hair presentation as everything I said would have been hypocrytical. I am in my 30s and am shocked by the Times article for not ridiculing the saddo man who had never seen a real woman. I am also of the brigade that thinks that a society that suddenly decides women should be hair free is bowing to pressure from pornographers and playing into the hands of paedophiles. BUT I realise that you can't say that to an individual and the contrary arguments are persuasive - that some women do it for their own pleasure - and that under arm hair is no different. So I'm a hypocrite. I have never had underarm hair - I shaved off the very first sprouts as a child. I don't have the guts to say I am all woman and grow it out - no way!
So whilst shocked I thought I should be tolerant of people's choices.
And then the truth hits me. If I was 20 and knew that even a small majority of my peers waxed their genitals - I would too. I am a sheep and the fear of being ridiculed for the appearance of my genitals is a strong motivating factor. (Can you imagine rumours quickly spreading around uni campus about the "ape girl")...god - how humiliating!
But then I kept thinking:
Hypothetically - what if this were next:
A fashion starts in the porn industry where someone (when having a labial reduction) is offered a tuck as well as a nip. Just a tiny one to pull together the labia at the entrance to the vagina. Penetration is a little trickier and everything is a bit tighter as a result. Turns out to be very popular with the viewers so the porn stars all have it done. Next thing you know the boys expect it and the girls comply for fear of rumours about them being "untidy" or "baggy" down below. "As if" I hear you cry. That's what my generation would have said all of 10 years ago about having bald vulvas....
Then you'll get some horrified mumsnet thread saying " is this normal?" and some young women come on and say it enhances their sexual pleasure too or made them feel neater so they did it for themselves. That's hard to argue against.
So then what'll we tell our daughters?
Where will it stop?
Will feminists of the future be caricatured as having untidy genitals as opposed to the hairy armpits of the 70s?
I'm not saying that a bit of hair removal is the same as genital mutilation. I'm just asking what you would do if there was peer pressure to take things a step further?
whoops - messed up the link - sorry
i've got wonky labia, and a hairier than average fanny so it would seem, and I don't care. If a worst that happens is that no man wants me, well at least i can eat vegetarian food in peace and have control of the remote control.
but seriously, it is ridiculous, all this waxing. as though it were shameful.
some posters on the other thread made me barf. "me and dh laugh when my hair gets too long ". HONESTLY, somebody did the blushy face because they had a bit of hair down there. the husband did too presumably. Was he ? don't think so.
I do agree with you - but if someone had said what you say about shaving my armpits then I would be very defensive. I would never bow to peer pressure now and was quite good at school. But anything with sexual overtones - first bra, shaving armpits/legs, I was very ready to go with what my peers thought.
It really worries me and I don't care how people dress up their personal preferences, those of us who remove our adult body hair are doing something strange. Imagine aliens landing on earth and finding out about this practice- I suspect they would ask why we mimic the pre pubescent. I suspect they'd also be a
little perplexed at the cost of a regular 'beauty treatment' compared to sponsoring a child and why some women do one and not the other.
For my daughter, I wonder if she'll ever see her own body hair, or whether she'll shamefully remove it because she 'wants to' and then save for her labial tuck. What progress we've made. We should be very proud.
I agree wahwah.
It annoys me when the example of underarm hair is used as a comparitive defence for waxing pubic hair all away. As if to say, look if you shave your underarm hair then that's the same, and you've no right to speak out against removing pubic hair.
I disagree for several reasons.
1) we should take this under arm hair 'defence' as a warning. Removing underarm hair has become so normalised, so expected, that to NOT remove it is understood to make a statement. Hippy, man-hater, unhygienic etc etc. Do we really want other areas to go the same way!?!?
2) It is different because in summer, people SEE your underarm hair. People don't see your pubic hair. It is different.
My first reaction to the question of whether I think pressure could potentially drive a lot of people to have ops there, would be "no way". But then again, I was shocked recently to realise how common having breast surgery for cosmetic reasons is under 20-somethings.
A girl I worked with was saving up for the op, and was apparently one of the only ones from her circle of friends that hasn't had it done yet. And I'm an accountant - not exactly the kind of asset I'd think you need! (But then, I feel ancient in comparison, so what do I know...)
So yes, I think peer pressure could potentially persuade a lot of people to do something really stupid.
On the other hand - maybe because it's so radical - people would get fed up and go the other way. Kind of how all the loud, plastic toys, all computerised etc are driving me to look for "old fashioned" wooden, simple toys instead.
I was told by a gynae that I had 'fashionable labia' which I thought was so inappropriate given I was there as I was very worried about something down below.
I think it is a ridiculous trend.
However it is my personal preference to be tidy down there and do get waxed (NOT brazilian). I don't think that is because of any real outside influence it just looks better in my view.
What do you do when you go on holiday or go for a swim?
I've got a fanny like a bear trappers hat. There is no way on earth I would consider having any sort of waxing or surgery in my downstairs department. My dd has already told me she isn't going to grow fur on hers because it would get too hot.
Krecher - bear trappers hat
Where do you tuck the tail bit?
MisterGod, way back in my day, unless you were a model/actress or whatever it was acceptable to be attractive in a normal way. But what you say is so true, young women today, even if they're scientists for example feel that they have to be feminine in this pornoperfection standard.
They think they're so liberal and in touch with their sexuaaaaalidy. Bollix. They should be asking themselves why precisely, they feel such an obligation to be above all else fuckable. It's a real step backwards imo.
I'm 39 and waaaay back in MY day, when I was a teenager, we seemed to value ourselves as people in a separate way, as well as obviously feeling some body insecurities... The bar was lower. We compared ourselves to eachother. Now, people compare themselves to playgirls or whatever you call them.
I agree with wahwah- the attitude to underarm hair should indeed serve as a warning. Think what we are really doing, and how that would look from the outside. I haven't shaved my armpits or any other part of me since I was a teenager and consider myself perfectly tidy and hygienic. And as someone mentioned on the other thread would be a bit shocked by any man- esp of my generation- who really expressed a pref for naked fanjo. Yuch.
But it's also true, and troubling, that many young women com;pare themselves not to each other (bad enough) but to 'glamourous' women in media- forgetting that their images are always digitally enhanced and nit acheivable.
Reclaim the adult female body, I say.
I am saddened by the number of women who hate their bodies. Or, maybe not their whole body, but they see themselves as just the sum of the parts. And they break themselves down to a list of components and they have every separate bit graded and compared with perfection.
<stands in hairy-fanjo'd solidarity next to kreecher>
The strength and range of women's self-loathing towards their bodies is so disturbing. Seems there's always something to hate and fixate upon. It also keeps female identity closely bound up with the physical, making it much easier for any interested party to disregard our intellect and personalities.
Having said that, of course I don't think that every woman who waxes her flange is doing so from profound patriarchal oppression. Hot wax has never touched my bits but I do shave my legs and armpits when I can be bothered. This is mostly personal preference but I'd be lying if I said peer pressure had never played a part - as a teen I had friends on one side saying 'oh you must shave your legs, everyone's doing it' and my mum's friends on the other saying 'NEVER remove your body hair, you're only doing it because men want you to, be proud in your hairy femininity instead'. It was very confusing
Not really sure what point I was trying to make there
The funny thing is hearing men's opinion on this. I've had this conversation (ops, general appearance etc etc - didn't go into the actual "so exactly how naked do you like your women" ) with some of my male friends before, and the general consensus seems to be that when they're young (and stupid ), they are all for the flashy plastic-y girls to hang around with, but when it comes to marrying them or settling down, they go for "normal" women - nice, funny, kind. Cosmetic appearances matter far less to men than to women, in my opinion.
Though - I say "cosmetic", but mean the extreme type. Of course not many people will find someone who slobs around all day attractive, but you can be beautiful and natural at the same time. <<off to brush hair fearing that the slobbing thing might scare dh off eventually >>
I am only the one that does not like excessive hair? I think hairy legs look awful. If I did not sort myself out I would have a thigh carpet. Seriously.
No, it's not that - I hate my hairy arms/legs/fill-in-at-leisure as well, and actually like the smooth feeling of just shaven legs etc. It's just that I think some people do it (whether "it" be wax or surgery, it doesn't really make that much difference in my books) for the wrong reasons. Well, in my books anyway.
I get my legs waxed susie100, but my fanny is private ykwim? I refuse to wax off hair that would only be seen by somebody I was having sex with.
If having a hairy fanny was a deal-breaker, then I shouldn't be having sex with that person anyway.
I don't really see a difference between hair in the pubic area and underarm hair.
If I am going to be doing quite a bit of swimming, I get some pubic hair removed (but not a Brazillian) with wax at the Beautician's and shave my arm pits at home.
But equally if I am really busy I will not do my bikini line or my armpits, or bother to pluck my very bushy eyebrows, and I do walk around in public showing both my brows and armpits in a hairy state.
So to me there is no real difference between arms and bikini line. Neither is a big deal to show, or to remove.
It really just depends how much time I've got free. The same applies to wearing make up.
Maybe I'm odd, but I just dislike body hair. I shave pretty much everything, for a while I even used to shave my eyebrows off. None of it is done for men (for the most part they don't notice or care), it's mainly for how it feels. Have any of you ever shaved your legs then put on something silky and thought how nice it felt against smooth skin? It's that for me. It's also hygiene.
For me personally (and I apologise if this is TMI) I have a genital piercing and used to have two. Being clean shaven down there feels far far more hygienic.
And no the piercings weren't there for men, the pleasure is all mine ;)
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