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lisobon treaty: irish how do you plan to vote?others how would you vote if given the chance?

(138 Posts)
mayorquimby Thu 01-Oct-09 09:25:42

i'm still up in the air,one of the undecideds. i feel the yes vote would probably be best for ireland and feel that the "vote no" side (libertas etc) are completely scare mongering in their campaign, but really want to vote no because i think this is one of the great attempts to circumvent the ideal of comon democracy hich was surely at the heart of the european experiment.

ThePrettiestStar Thu 01-Oct-09 09:32:44

I feel exactly the same way as you do, I think that it was absolutely apalling and very patronising to run the vote again.

This only makes me want to vote no this time. I am not entirely sure what I am going to do tomorrow. I do think that both sides of the vote have been campaigning very dubiously though.

mayorquimby Thu 01-Oct-09 10:00:50

yes both very very dubious. but none more dubious than the red haired,green eyed,crying girl poster of libertas, which frankly looks like something from a horro movie.
or the one with a picture of a granny and a foestus saying a yes vote will kill them both.

BarbieLovesKen Thu 01-Oct-09 10:15:54

I'm pretty sure that I'm voting yes. Its been a tough one but I think Ireland really needs it to be honest.

I think we all have to be careful not to vote no simply to express dissatisfaction at the current government or Brian Cowen etc, instead of voting no from our own opinions etc, if you know what I mean. Have a feeling this will happen though.

Was worried about Lisbon paving the way for abortion in this country, which the "no voters" have been claiming (like you say with the pictures, mayorquimby (horrible!)) but have read that Ireland has secured a legal guarantee that it will retain control over sensitive social issues, including those related tot he protection of the right to life, the family and education.

atlantis Thu 01-Oct-09 10:22:47

Ireland are lucky they have the right to vote on the treaty unlike the rest of the uk, I think you'll find if Ireland do the rest of the UK the great service of holding out on the no vote along with the czech people then under the next government the rest of us will have the right to vote NO.

Many countries in Europe, given the chance, would probably vote no to this treaty, which is why most governments wont give the public, whom they are supposed to serve the vote.

Ireland has the chance to reshape european policy and I don't think that should be taken so lightly, right now we are in great danger of losing even more of our powers, decision making and wealth to the european union, that's not scaremongering, it's already happening and will only get worse if the treaty is ratified.

I believe that people should look to the bullying powers of europe in itself. Ireland have voted already, that should have been enough to stop this treaty but europe did not like the answer and Ireland were told to vote again. How dare they decide that the majority of people are wrong and force another vote.

Please, Please, Please Ireland, hold out and vote NO for all those countries who are not allowed to vote but wished they could.

ceres Thu 01-Oct-09 10:27:56

atlantis - ireland is not part of the uk.

daftpunk Thu 01-Oct-09 10:29:18

they will probably vote is in a such a mess....not sure they can make it on their own..

but yeah....great they have the right to vote...

i didn't want to join the EU...why should someone in Brussels decide things for me...

BarbieLovesKen Thu 01-Oct-09 10:31:56

Was just about to say that ceres

mayorquimby Thu 01-Oct-09 10:34:10

"Ireland are lucky they have the right to vote on the treaty unlike the rest of the uk"
why do i get the feeling you might get taken to task for this sentence?

"Many countries in Europe, given the chance, would probably vote no to this treaty, which is why most governments wont give the public, whom they are supposed to serve the vote"

and this for my money is why i feel i should vote no. the treaty first time arond was pretty much exactly the same document as the proiposed europea constitution, but the leaders of the EU realised they'd have to put it to the people and it would never get off the they re-wrote it as a treaty to circumvent the majority of the EU citizens except those who needed a referendum such as ireland.
i voted no the first time around,not because i disliked the aims of the treaty (in fact i think it's a good and pragmatic document) but because i recognised the intentions of the european leaders to take the power away from the people with a self-ratifying treaty,meaning that once passed we will no longer have any say in changes that te leaders wish to put into practice.
also the language of the leaders andcampaigners for a yes vote had all the hall marks of thse who held the people of europe in absolute contempt.there was a lot of mentions of the "political machines" at work in europe and a lot of thinly veiled insinuations of Irelands standing in europe if we said no. apparently this would essentially create a two-tiered europe of which ireland would be a black sheep and a pariah.

now however i wonder if i have to be pragmatic and put my principles aside,it does feel like being over the barrell.

mayorquimby Thu 01-Oct-09 10:36:02

we're still in the eu regardless of the vote daftpunk. no claims of being on our own completely.lots of claims about being marginalised by the greater powers of the EU (germany ets) though,so i suppose we might be on our own in a way.

Buda Thu 01-Oct-09 10:36:34

To clarify atlantis - UK stands for "the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". It is the Republic of Ireland that are voting.

daftpunk Thu 01-Oct-09 10:37:10

i know that...but did we have a chance to say no..? it was decided by politicians..

LadyGlencoraPalliser Thu 01-Oct-09 10:40:49

I am Irish and if I still lived in the country I would be voting yes. On balance, I think the treaty is what is needed to make the EU work more efficiently and that is something that needs to happen.
I also loathe and despise nearly everybody on the no side of the campaign and their campaign tactics make me want to retch - so that's another biggie.
Of course I loathe and despise a lot of people on the yes side too.

mayorquimby Thu 01-Oct-09 10:41:53

sorry daftpunk don't understand, are you from ireland or the UK.
are you talking about joining the eu in the first place? or the lisbon treaty?

daftpunk Thu 01-Oct-09 10:42:39

they have to vote yes...they will sink otherwise...

mayorquimby Thu 01-Oct-09 10:43:13

also how bad is my typing? lis'O'bon? i'm really trying to make the treaty irish.maybe that's my subliminal tactic to get a yes vote

LadyGlencoraPalliser Thu 01-Oct-09 10:43:50

Daftpunk, I'm not really sure you know what you are talking about here.

EldonAve Thu 01-Oct-09 10:45:07

I hope they vote NO again
Asking the question again in the hope of getting a yes seems insulting

I am in the UK and if we were voting I would vote NO

daftpunk Thu 01-Oct-09 10:46:13

my parents are Irish and i have lots of family there...i'm from London..

sorry...didn't want to change the direction of the thread by talking about the EU....and yes..i was talking about joining the EU in the first place....i would love to come out of it...i want England to make it's own laws...i don't even want to bother with scotland/wales/N.I

PinkTulips Thu 01-Oct-09 10:46:35

I'm not allowed to vote as i'm still technically Dutch but dp is under orders to vote YES.

There is no EU constitution that is going to appease 100% of the european population, such is the nature of life, there will always be some who come out better than others but i feel the LT is fair and well thought out and i actually approve of the weighting of votes based on citizans, not counties... what people fail to realise is that it equalises the EU... unfortunately as a smaller country that isn't appealing to us but i do think that a country with 10x the population should get 10x the right to decide on certain matters... not that that makes me popular when i dare say it wink

The ammendment to our constitution that the referendum decides upon specifically states that we retain the right to uphold our own laws and regulations so the scaremongering the NO camp have being doing suggesting that the EU will be able to enforce massive changes to the country's legal structure like legalising abortion (and murdering the elderly in their sleep if you'd believe libertas hmm) is simply untrue.

I think the government have made a huge cock up of the whole issue from the first vote onwards but that doesn't automatically mean that they're wrong to say we should say YES tomorrow. There should have been more effort put into explaining the issues in simple terms, simply posting out copies of the Treaty doesn't help 90% of the public as the language used is undecipherable to most ordinary people (it sure as hell gave me a headache!), I just hope enough have read a bit more into the issue than Libertas campaign posters to decide properly tomorrow.

LadyGlencoraPalliser Thu 01-Oct-09 10:48:20

I think the EU is a thoroughly good thing and I love being part of it. grin

BarbieLovesKen Thu 01-Oct-09 10:48:25

But thats the thing EldonAve - although I completely understand where you are coming from I'm worried that people will vote no to ^get back^ , so to speak at the government for the re vote and/ or to express disatisfaction at the current government - instead of what they believe is right for the country, ifykwim?

atlantis Thu 01-Oct-09 10:48:29

Sorry, I have re-read and seen the word rest twice.

I think it was a cross between give the rest of us and give the UK the right to vote.

Not trying to be all colonial.

LadyGlencoraPalliser Thu 01-Oct-09 10:49:44

Great post, PT.

mayorquimby Thu 01-Oct-09 10:50:27

you'd think it was insulting but we're used to it at this stage. it's not the first time ireland have said no to the EU by way of referendum and the EU and OUR OWN POLITICIANS (now that's the insulting part) have simply told us that we gave the wrong answer,i mean FFS how can a democratic referendum be the wrong answer, and we were simply made to vote on exactly the same thingagain 6 months later.
fwiw i don't even blame the EU that much,they know what they want and they're trying to get it. but for our own fucking politicians who are meant to represent the democratic majority are told the will of the people but then bend over for europe and try and tell us that we're wrong, they shouldn't give a toss if they think we're wrong. they should be their to represent the will of the people.

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