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Please uncover your face-Matthew Parrish

(554 Posts)
mrsruffallo Sat 30-May-09 08:57:52

Interesting article here
I have noticed that there are more women covering up in the last few years.
Any opinions?

Nancy66 Sat 30-May-09 10:33:48

I've noticed this too - i find it distressing and it makes me angry. I don't think the burka should be allowed to be worn in this country in a public place.

i know there were moves to ban them in public in Holland but I'm not sure whether it happened.

Traditional muslim dress is fine but everything about the burka: how it looks, how it affects small children, the message it sends, the controlling of women is deeply disturbing.

RealityIsMyOnlyDelusion Sat 30-May-09 10:43:18

Message withdrawn

oopsagain Sat 30-May-09 10:47:26

so, if you ban it are you not controlling women too?

Why would we need to ban an item of clothing?
are we so so frightened of stuff that is different from what we are used to (obviously i am talking to people who don't wear one..)

I think that there is a group of woment who choose to wear one as a politicla statement too., not just as a sign of opression.

Since when did any of us know whay an individual does soemthing like wear a burka?

Once upon a time it was dreadful to call somebody "gay", now the term has been taken and used by homsexuals as something descriptive, not nasty.
And the word Nigger has been taken up into common usage by blakc men- it just doesn't have the same meaning that it used to.
So why not the burka?

I think that as people who don't wear one we need to be very careful by labellinig those that do as "opressed" and having their will taken away- it is as opressive as the original reason for wearing one

mrsruffallo Sat 30-May-09 10:51:29

But is it odds in a country where people have fought so hard for liberation?

oopsagain Sat 30-May-09 10:55:31

I seem to remember a similar discussion in which we talked about whether or not we should ban people with a disabiltiy form TV because it might scare the horses children.

we decided not to.

BTW when woemn are in the presecen of other owmen and children they can show their face- like at playgroup there's a woman who will take hers off because there are women and children present.

There are some mothers at our school that wear the full deal, there's a couple that wear headscrves-
I'm not going out to tell them they are opressed and shouldn't do it- will you?
The one woman that i know quite well would laugh in your face if you told her she was pressed, there really is nothing meek about her or her dds.

It's a culture of "we know better then you" that scares me, not the wearing of an item of clothing.

And in this case if we take up a cry to ban the hijab then we are no better than the "opressors"

Nancy66 Sat 30-May-09 10:59:12

they can still wear it in private - i just don't think it has a place in a modern, equal and civilised society.

PolkSaladLucie Sat 30-May-09 10:59:20

It doesn't bother me that woman cover their faces. It would bother me if they were not given the choice to.

We didn't just fight for liberation, we fought for freedom of choice... If we ban burkas, we are just as controlling as a society that forces women to cover.

And the passport/ID thing isn't true.

PolkSaladLucie Sat 30-May-09 11:01:14

"they can still wear it in private" - that's very big of you Nancy.

And they don't wear it in private, only in public.

mrsruffallo Sat 30-May-09 11:02:34

But it is not just an item of clothing is it? It's not a fashion statement, it is a symbol of rejecting western ideals- quite strange in a western country, no?
Do we not have the right to feel uncomfortable about that?
I wouldn't call for a ban, and I don't think that MP is either.
I think his point is that when we are in a country we are respectful of their customs- should we be afforded the same respect?

I don't understand the comparison between a disabled TV presenter and women who wear the full hijab, sorry

onagar Sat 30-May-09 11:05:16

We shouldn't need to ban it. if we are expected to do the polite thing in other places then it is rude to wear them here in public.

The passport thing should be banned. That is just crazy.

pooka Sat 30-May-09 11:07:34

I agree with Matthew Parris.

It is all about respect for local customs. When in Rome and all that - particularly as there does not seem to be any prevailing religious requirement that women completely cover their faces.

I personally find it offensive and it makes me feel uneasy and uncomfortable.

nevergoogledragonbutter Sat 30-May-09 11:07:47

matthew parish, for example, is a twat

pooka Sat 30-May-09 11:08:53

Well that won't come up when he googles himself wink

It's Parris, isn't it?

nevergoogledragonbutter Sat 30-May-09 11:10:29

apologies.

matthew parris, for example, is a twat.

pooka Sat 30-May-09 11:10:55

That's better - he'll know what you're thinking now

Gorionine Sat 30-May-09 11:12:20

oopsagain you are a very wise woman.

I am a muslim, I do not wear a nikab (a burka is the one we saw Afgan women wearing, It was there long before the talibans and used to be just the way they used to dress to go out in public places) or even just a scarf yet.

I have several friends who do wear a nikab or (the black facial piece of fabric that only shows the eyes), none of them does it to please anyone, but because their faith is much stonger than mine and they do WANT to make a statement of it, I cannot see anything wrong with that.

I desagree that women should be forced to wear one but I desagree as well that it should be outlawed.

I have got a little story about being able to recognise a woman wearing a nikab. I have this friend in an English town where most muslim womem ware a nikab. I had only meat her once at the time when she called us (me and DH to say her husband had been taken ill to hospital and was asking if we could come and visit. As I was waiting for her at the hospital reception , I did wonder how on earth I would recognise her because all the laidies had their face covered. believe it or not, I recognised her the minute she came in and had spetted her before she had actually spotted me!.

I think the fear people have are not justified, nor are the excuses they wasnt to use to justifie forbidding women from wearing it. Using the "they are all opressed"2 when it should be "It does scare us because we do not understand it" is vrong IMHO.

Gorionine Sat 30-May-09 11:14:07

Sorry for tyos blush!

Nancy66 Sat 30-May-09 11:22:01

Not sure I understand the comparison with disabled people on television at all.

I won't object so strongly if muslim men also covered their faces but they don't...

EvenBetaDad Sat 30-May-09 11:25:13

I agree with many of the things said in the article. I do not like to see women with their faces fully covered for all the reasons Mr Paris said. I agree with what Nancy66 says too and some but not all of the comments below Mr Paris' article.

However, I wonder if the apparently large (mrsRuffalo and increasing?) number of women Mr Paris sees in the UK with their faces fully covered is a function of the fact he lives/works in London? Would it be fair to say that not even close to 5% of Muslim women in the UK fully cover the faces - which is much less than say in Syria or Iran?

My experience of living in London is that not all Muslim women there cover their faces, not even the majority, or even a large percentage. However, there are a fairly high proportion of Saudi visitors to the capital, for example, who stay for the summer in and around Lancaster Gate Area and I often see those women with their faces fully covered so it perhaps seems a higher percentage than it really is. There may be a similar national grouping who do also follow that tradition who are concentrated in and around Tower Hamlets - so again it just seems a high percentage.

I also live part of the time in two places outside London and both with a very high Muslim population (mainly from Pakistan) and I cannot remember seeing more than a very occassional woman with her face fully covered - but most wear a headscarf and traditional dress.

[I thought the later part of his article about women and handbags on tube/bus seats was also interesting. It is very noticeable women do this so much more than men. Is it perhaps because women feel less secure?]

RealityIsMyOnlyDelusion Sat 30-May-09 11:26:53

Message withdrawn

EvenBetaDad Sat 30-May-09 11:28:07

That is Mr Parris of course.

mrsruffallo Sat 30-May-09 11:28:47

Yes, sorry about the little sh on the endblush

Nancy66 Sat 30-May-09 11:35:15

reality - those are fashion statements chosing by teenagers who eventually grow out of them. They're also chosen of their own free will - and some shops and malls HAVE banned hoodies.

mrsruffallo Sat 30-May-09 11:35:54

Don't seethe fashion comparison at all
It's not worn for fashion

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