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Never mind school food....

19 replies

Gizmo · 27/04/2005 15:50

Just read this piece by Libby Purves, The Times columnist.

She makes a connection between our low level of social mobility, poor educational standards and low level, continuous disruption in schools. Then plays out some of the extreme scenarios you could envisage to control such behaviour.

Now DS isn't in the school system yet and I have no way of knowing whether what she describes is the real situation in the UK. C'mon mumsnetters, tell me: is it as bad as she's suggesting? Do we really need security staff in every lesson ?

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tarantula · 27/04/2005 16:07

Dss is in the secondary school system and the things he tells me have left me both gobsmacked and horrified. He is not in a particularly good school but nor is it a really bad one but I am really depressed at the thought of dd going to a school like that one day.

I do agree tho that the low level persistant bad behaviour causes many problems. Dss's school has really tightened up on lots of small things such as uniform and swearing which I think is good but it is very difficult as there are many parents who are not willing to back the school up.

happymerryberries · 27/04/2005 16:13

I don't need a security person in my lessons but there is contstant low level disruption in all the but the very 'best' classes. I battle it, and sometimes suceed, but I can honestly say that the children who most need my help are the least likely to get it because of chatting in lesson and silly behaviour.

For example. I teach one class in y8. Every time, and I realy do mean every time I start to explain something a child will start to chat to their neighbrour. Not the one child, 90% of the class will do this. So I stop and wait. I keep them in every lesson to catch up time. I have been doing this since September and only now, in April is it begining to work.

Using the Fuck word in school in the hearing of staff is endemic.

Everyone should watch this film tonight and then raisec holy hell to get standards to behaviour back where they should be.

Frizbe · 27/04/2005 16:14

You've reminded me of some comments from a supply friend of mine, who has in the last few months, experienced, the kids having the gall to move the clock forward half an hour, thus getting on break rather early for my friend....and also an 11year old boy exposing himself to her in the middle of class, both incidents at different schools, neither school, particularly bad......

Gizmo · 27/04/2005 16:14

Oh yipes

I do have friends who are teachers, but they are quite discreet: I know they have some classes they dread, but not why really.

The thing is - it makes me wonder why we bother? I'm spending lots of time teaching ds manners at the moment and yet, when he gets to school, if he exhibits them, he's going to get (at best) laughed at.

Home schooling is looking attractive right now...

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happymerryberries · 27/04/2005 16:15

in a local school to me, not one that I work in, but one of the best in the county a pair of kids ere given 10 days exclusion. She was giving him a hand job in the lesson!

Chandra · 27/04/2005 16:36

Why we bother Gizmo? is the parents like you who make all the difference, the education starts at home. Obviously a lot of people is expecting their children's behaviour to sort itself or a miracle done by the school, rather than taking a more direct responsability in the subject.

Gizmo · 27/04/2005 16:41

Yeah, you're right Chandra, it's the logic of despair not to do it (plus it would make my home life no fun)...

It's a complex problem I'm sure, but it doesn't seem to be a 'sexy' one in political terms. Why is that, do you think?

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Chandra · 27/04/2005 17:16

I have my own theory but I believe that the reality that feeds it is so far removed from this country that it won't be a politically correct solution here.

The fact is that education is a hard earned right but there are people who don't want to study and are forced into school. I grew up in Latin America and for better or worse there are not enough schools for everybody although everybody has the right to try to get a place, what I'm going to say is based JUST in MY very personal experience). So forget about catchment areas, you need to pass a exam if you want access to the school (recomendation letters reg behaviour are also requested BUT no school defuses to provide them even if they are sending the hell in a package to the next school).

Once in, you study and you behave, there's a very clear system to take care of bad points that ends up in expulsion. No authority would force the school to reconsider their decission, in a way they recognise that the school knows best because they deal with the problem child every day of the working week. If you are expelled you are in problems, most pay-free schools won't accept you so the family would have to pay the bill if you want to continue studying. Even though children are not permitted to work until they are 16, many of them end up being "employed" by their families helping with house chores or the family business (even if that means only to go and fetch refreshments at lunch time).

Obviously, it would never be like that in a country where everybody gets a place whatever the behaviour or performance. However, I have a friend in Spain that teaches children that are between 13-16, she has find a way to be allowed to teach her classes: She talks with the children who prove to be far too problematic and arrange to stop paying attention to their performance in exchange of them allowing her to teach the class in peace to those students who want to learn and also have the right to do it.

FIMAC1 · 27/04/2005 20:09

Agree with Chandra - most of the probs start before school, with poor parenting

I, and I am sure, most MN'ers would not behave in the way that they do today, cause we know we would have been hauled through the coals by our Mum and Dad (and got the cane or slipper from school) if we had have done.... it is not down to the schools to teach the kids how to behave - and have to put up with this c**p from these deliquents (generalisation I know! - I mean like the ones in tonights prog)

I feel for all teachers these days, I really do, I don't know how you do it - you all deserve a bleeding Medal

stitch · 27/04/2005 20:31

but teachers dont get a medal. what they get is low pay, a huge workload, and lots of stress from everyone.
i agree with chandra. education should not be a right all the way up to the age of sixteen. it should be earned. and from my experience, all the examples given in the article are very true.

FIMAC1 · 27/04/2005 21:30

Trouble is is that is the ones that would drop out of school like a shot should really be encouraged to stay on - even to do vocational exams so they could get a job, pay tax, not be on the dole, (have a career) etc etc etc

My friend knows of someone who's ds was placed in a failing school for year 7 - they went to look at it (open-mindedly) but not really thinking of taking the offer - but wanted to be seen to be considering all options - the first class they went into one of the pupils looked up and said 'what the f**k' are you doing in here? The visit was cut short after that

stitch · 27/04/2005 22:04

its sad but that comment doesnt surprise me.

its definitly in the home that education begins. and a great many people just dont bother with any manners for themselves, let alone teach their kids manners.
i rmember teaching a y10 class, and the only way i could get them to stop swearing etc was by insisting they use only the correct scientific terms in front of me. worked for them.
note how this is not a particularly popular thread?

wheresmyfroggy · 27/04/2005 22:26

Bring back the cane.....

swedishmum · 27/04/2005 22:48

One main reason given by people against Home Ed is the lack of socialisation. Who'd want their children to socialise with delinquents?

In some ways I'm very pro school education - spent my time as a Head of Department in some tough S London schools and can take a butterfly knife off a high 15 year old along with the best of them (and have done) but would I send my kids there? No way!

stitch · 27/04/2005 22:48

but on a slightly more serious note, i dont think that would work.

happymerryberries · 28/04/2005 06:32

I wouldn't want to see a return to the cane. But I would exclude persistant troublemakers. And I would do it before they had a chance to make everyone's life a misery.

You can cope with one or two 'bad eggs' ina school, but once you reach the point where there are, say 2 in each class they will cause havoc. And they will then lead on the daft kids who are basicaly OK up lazy and up for a laugh.

No-one has the 'right' to wreck the education of the other kids in the class. If they kick off, we should kick them out. Bring back EBD schools.

Inclusion for SN is one thing. EBD is quite different.

suedonim · 28/04/2005 14:48

What do teachers/parents think of the latest idea for dealing with disruptive pupils? Would it work? Boarding Schools

hunkermunker · 28/04/2005 14:57

HMB - sorry - I know this is a serious thread, but "the fuck word" - PMSL!

stitch · 28/04/2005 16:17

i used to have two good ones in my class!
what is ebd?

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