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Link from the DM - sorry - but genuinely interested in your thoughts

(24 Posts)
Howdydoodyfolks Tue 13-Feb-18 14:06:53

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5384909/My-golliwogs-say-insists-pub-landlord.html

Howdydoodyfolks Tue 13-Feb-18 14:11:09

I was speaking to DM about this subject last week and she was always told it stood for White Oriental Gentleman confused so couldnt see a problem.... DD used this subject (we are a mixed race family) in her A Levels and the Head wouldnt display her work because of that.
Am interested in opinions, thanks

picklemepopcorn Tue 13-Feb-18 14:27:39

Generally, I prefer things to be open for discussion rather than a no debate attitude.

That said, they actually look really grim up in the air like that- like a lynching.

And I think three complaints in three years should be enough. I wonder why there was only one black person in the pub at the time? hmm

Howdydoodyfolks Tue 13-Feb-18 14:39:51

Yes it does look like a lynching you're right, didnt notice that.

damnsandra Tue 13-Feb-18 16:26:55

I just clicked tor the Dm comments. They didn't disappoint. PC gorn mad... snowflake generation ... amazing.

Landlords sad faces are great!

IMHO the golliwogs just look bloody unhygienic that alone is enough to get rid!

cdtaylornats Tue 13-Feb-18 17:48:09

The racist here is the complainant who looked at a Golliwog and saw a black person.

picklemepopcorn Tue 13-Feb-18 18:20:10

Not really, given that is what gollywogs were originally intended to be...

cdtaylornats Tue 13-Feb-18 21:33:19

Yes in a cartoonish sort of way as the other two characters were Dutch Dolls and the Golliwog was the heroic character.

picklemepopcorn Tue 13-Feb-18 22:03:04

I don't really think it's defensible anymore, to be honest.

From Enid Blyton...

Once the three bold golliwogs, Golly, Woggie, and Nigger, decided to go for a walk to Bumble-Bee Common. Golly wasn't quite ready so Woggie and Nigger said they would start off without him, and Golly would catch them up as soon as he could. So off went Woogie and Nigger, arm-in-arm, singing merrily their favourite song -- which, as you may guess, was Ten Little Nigger Boys.(p. 51)

Agatha Christie novel 10 Little Niggers
Ten Little Niggers is the name of a children's poem, sometimes set to music, which celebrates the deaths of ten Black children, one-by-one. The Three Golliwogs was reprinted as recently as 1968, and it still contained the above passage. Ten Little Niggers5 was also the name of a 1939 Agatha Christie novel, whose cover showed a Golliwog lynched, hanging from a noose.

And

The Golliwog was created during a racist era. He was drawn as a caricature of a minstrel -- which itself represented a demeaning image of blacks. There is racial stereotyping of black people in Florence Upton's books, including The Adventures of Two Dutch Dolls-- such as the black minstrel playing a banjo on page 45. It appears that the Golliwog was another expression of Upton's racial insensitivity. Certainly later Golliwogs often reflected negative beliefs about blacks -- thieves, miscreants, incompetents. There is little doubt that the words associated with Golliwog-- Golly, Golli, Wog, and Golliwog, itself -- are often used as racial slurs. Finally, the resurgence of interest in the Golliwog is not found primarily among children, but instead is found among adults, some nostalgic, others with financial interests.

FlopsyMcDoodle Tue 13-Feb-18 22:05:39

But why insist on keeping them? Black people have said they find them offensive so there is absolutely no reason to keep them other than to just say a great big fuck you to black people.

Howdydoodyfolks Tue 13-Feb-18 22:08:32

Picklemepopcorn shock wow!! Unbelievable really that it wasnt that long ago. Seems like people are still so divided over these things

cdtaylornats Tue 13-Feb-18 23:49:22

Picklemepopcorn so are you saying that there were no black american minstrels that played the banjo?

Which black people have found them offensive? Can you point me to a legitimate reference?

sallyandherarmy Tue 13-Feb-18 23:54:49

I treasure my Golliwog.

He took me a lot of Robinson jam eating to get!

He sits with my big Teddy and my cabbage patch doll.

I am a sentimental old bint.

smile

picklemepopcorn Wed 14-Feb-18 06:56:14

I'm not sure how that is relevant, @cdtaylornats . Gollywogs have a rich history, but are associated with the 'othering' of black people.

I have no issue with people's personal childhood memorabilia, but Gollies are now an embarrassing relic of the past.

Entertainers blacked up as caricatures of black people, hammed up their act with fake accents and buffoonery, and dolls based on them are rightly no longer acceptable.

cdtaylornats Wed 14-Feb-18 07:23:55

pickle
What about these Morris dancers - is their blacking up offensive? Or should we be allowed to preserve English culture?

OhWhatFuckeryIsThisNow Wed 14-Feb-18 07:35:02

Black faces are a common feature - not to imitate Moors - but to confer anonymity on the dancer.. From the Morris Ring, a site about Morris traditions. Other sources say they originated in the mines of Cornwall and they imitated miners.
He has them up for just this reason, he's not professionally offended, he's a professional offender-he wants to be able to go, "British tradition, I'm not offending anyone, snowflakes (fucking awful insult), my pub, my rools" and to work up similar idiots that inhabit the DM comment section.

OhWhatFuckeryIsThisNow Wed 14-Feb-18 07:59:37

And please excuse the word Moor, it was a direct quote from the site, talking about the dances history.

picklemepopcorn Wed 14-Feb-18 08:02:43

You don't see the difference between yours and these?
In Morris dancing, you can distinguish between individuals, no attempt to make everyone look the same. In Morris dancing, no one stole the music of an oppressed people and made a huge profit from it.

And if it were traditionally English to have racist overtones to events, then yes, we should document it, stow it in museums, and move on.

picklemepopcorn Wed 14-Feb-18 08:03:19

Forgot the photos.

ShortandAnnoying Wed 14-Feb-18 08:22:30

I don't think the black Morris look like they are being racist as the black clothes and crow feathers etc just make them look like some kind of gothic mystery characters. You can easily imagine a connection to smuggling and poaching that kind of thing. They reminded me of Game of Thrones when I saw a parade of them.

OhWhatFuckeryIsThisNow Wed 14-Feb-18 08:31:12

In case you didn't notice Pickle, I'm not defending gollies. Someone asked about morries men and I googled. I think gollies are an offensive anachronism only used now in the media to whip up just this type of faux hysteria.

picklemepopcorn Wed 14-Feb-18 08:57:23

Yes OWFIN, sorry, I was replying to cdt.

fannyanddick Wed 14-Feb-18 13:04:14

I have some Enid blyton books from my childhood. I started reading one to my ds. It has a golliwog character, who is also in the pictures. He is a positive character. I changed his name to 'golly' and left out any reference to his blackness but wondered if I should be reading it at all. Opinions?

CoolCarrie Wed 14-Feb-18 22:25:23

The museum of childhood in Edinburgh calls the jolly golly dolls, and they do have some there, and the badges from the jam jars as well, the museum is probably the best place for them.

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