Attack in marseille

[StealthPolarBear]

Two dead. Exact links between the attacker and isis are not yet clear.
[[I saw this on the BBC and thought you should see it:

Marseille attack: Two young women stabbed to death - www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41461107]]

[StealthPolarBear]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41461107

[donajimena]

Oh no how awful.

[SerfTerf]

It rather got knocked off the news agenda yesterday by the Spanish situation didn't it?

The consoling aspect is how quickly the attackers were neutralised. It shows that Operation Sentinelle is working.

I'm trying not to think about it beyond that as DS is traveling across France by train today.

[StealthPolarBear]

It did serf I kept checking to see if there was a thread. Hope you're not too worried about your ds today x

[StealthPolarBear]

Not that I logically think you have anything to particularly worry about iyswim.

[SerfTerf]

No I'm sure it will be fine. I just hope there's not going to be lockdowns and false alarms and travel chaos really. I'm sure that's half of what they aim for.

Those poor two young women though and their poor families.

[UnRavellingFast]

Very little about it on the news sites- strange. How terrible. What a terrifying death for the poor girls.

[Crackednips]

Unbelievably tragic, my heart goes out to the families of the victims... When will this end? These barbaric moslum terrorist attacks are so frequent now, they barely register.

[applefalls]

Given the likelihood of mumsnetters with teenage/young women daughters who might expect to travel through France unstabbed, I am appalled (but not surprised) by the deafening silence with which this news has been met.

I'd like to think we've become inured to this sort of news but am afraid the truth is far more sinister.

[StealthPolarBear]

What are you suggesting Apple?

[applefalls]

That we seem to have, as a society, backed away from the idea of debating an ideology in the face of ill-informed, knee-jerk debate-closing.

I see ground-down acceptance and trite lip service but the robust, open, brave debate that will force the unpleasant truths into the public arena? I genuinely don't think, as a society, that we've the stomach for it.

[StealthPolarBear]

Sorry I still don't understand. I may well agree when you explain it I just genuinely have no clue

[applefalls]

Sorry, I am genuinely not tying to be opaque!

I mean that I've seen absolutely no calls at all in the wake of this hideous attack, for a public debate on the appalling cult of Wahhabism so prevalent now in Europe; who is funding it, why is nobody publicly attacking the ideology and how have we become so inured to this horror that this latest attack goes almost unremarked?

[StealthPolarBear]

I've just had to Google. Off for a read.

[SerfTerf]

Even if the whole of Europe joined in "condemning Wahabbism" tomorrow (in whatever form), it wouldn't stamp out the Islamic terrorism. Because the radicalisation happens outside Europe, either physically or via online material.

[thecatfromjapan]

Sorry, apple , but I think you're just very poorly-read. There are institutes in universities and many books dedicated to discussing and countering fundamentalism, particularly Islamic fundamentalism.

Might I suggest that you leave your bubble and educate yourself?

If I came onto the internet, pouting about how everyone seems to be ignoring the idea that the earth is round, I'd be mocked but hopefully a few polite souls would point out that I was perhaps missing something in the wider culture. This, in fact, is the position you are in.

[thecatfromjapan]

Oh, and apple , just in case you've missed this one, too: don't ever heat your bath-water up by putting an electric heater in it.

[thecatfromjapan]

That's horrible.

As Serf said, those poor young women and their families.

[Crackednips]

applefalls You are absolutely right and I agree with you. There's a reluctance for people to talk about the horrors that islamic terrorism is inflicting on Europe and the West at the moment.

Start a thread about the "Far Right" though and you'll get pages and pages of comment, theories and accusations.

[applefalls]

Thecat yes, I know; I was part of those discussions at my madrasah and at Uni, thanks. I still belong to a handful of groups discussing Islamic reform.

My point was rather that Western society in general prefers to avoid public debate about the ideology which seeks to destroy our values. We would, in my opinion, prefer to be seen as peacefully acquiescent and full of hopeful prayer than having robust critical debate.

Your sarcasm did make me smile though.

Serf sadly that's not quite true. There's a terrifying amount happening right here in Europe.

We just prefer to turn a blind eye and I wonder if it's as simple as sheer cowardice? Ignorance or naivety?

[thecatfromjapan]

apple OK, point taken. But I still disagree. I think the subject is, very much, discussed. Not terribly well, perhaps - but then, what do you expect? I know my dream is that intelligent, informed political discussion should be the matrix in which people live - but I do know that's a little unrealistic. People are busy, people perhaps don't have time to access the information necessary for a fully-informed discussion.

But look at MN today - percentage-wise, this is a discussion people are having.

I mean this with utter sincerity: have a look at the Westminenders threads, over in the EU section. I can honestly say that I have never, ever seen such a good example of how MN/social media can be used to produce a discursive information tool. It has some basic features (statements tend to be linked to verifiable sources; discussion has to be non-personal; trolls are discouraged) which have evolved and are very useful.

I think it is genuinely a really good model for the potential of social media to generate informed discussion.

... are you interested in having a go? (And I totally appreciate if you don't. It's a lot of hard work, for no recompense other than public good, and there is a lot of frustration involved. Which is why people tend to write books/articles instead - which, unfortunately, often have a less wide social reach.)

[applefalls]

Thecat, I agree - MN is one of the few bastions of rational and reasoned debate and I have genuinely learned so much reading, contributing, being challenged and hearing other viewpoints.

I think the range and depth of discussion here is admirable.

I don't see the same willingness to dissect and disagree when it comes to debating the ideology of Islam. In my experience, many non-Muslims fight shy of direct criticism, fearing, understandably, the knee-jerk cries of 'racist' and 'islamophobe' and seeing those labels as far, far worse than 'coward' or 'offender.'

There's a compelling argument to hold up mirrors and challenge an ideology whose tenets are both sexist and homophobic. Yet the feminist voices around, say, Cologne, are deafeningly silent when it comes to publicly challenging this ideology.

Why? We are intelligent, thoughtful women who are fast to highlight and pillory ignorance and prejudice in pretty much every other sphere.

Were you here for the Cologne 'discussions?' They were derailed, posters banned, guest speakers uninvited and a steady campaign to close the debate drove many informed and open-minded poster to private fora. It was a disgrace.

[thecatfromjapan]

I avoided the Cologne discussions. They weren't great.

Perhaps a problem is that there are few voices arguing for criticism/critique from within an Islamic identity? And I'm aware how flat-footed that short-hand 'Islamic identity' is!!! Holding faith with those minority identities, and lending support to those voices, is very important. Perhaps we have too few of those voices on MN?

I'm an ex literature student, and I guess the place I'd start would be with female writers, such as Many Shirazi and Ahdaf Soueif, rather than political work, such as that of Jason Burke.

What about you? What suggestions would you have?

[applefalls]

There won't ever be a significant number of voices arguing for reform inside Islam. Apostates are effectively the only ones who do and believe me, that's not a life I'd choose for my worst enemy.

Criticism is forbidden. So we have a rather thorny problem as even 'moderate' Muslims have no public appetite for reform.

I think subjecting this ideology to the same rigorous debate as, say, the (70-300 strong?) Westboro Baptists who are trotted out with clichéd predictability, would be a start.

But I think the cotton-wool wrapping of one ideology by a strident and aggressive group of (frankly ignorant) feminists, liberals and gay men is one of the most frightening aspects of this conundrum.

Look at the appalling reactions to the patient, informed and reasonable posts of, say, Mistress Mia on MN to see how hysterically and vituperatively intelligent criticism is received right here on this forum.

In fact, this thread contains a tiny microcosm thereof

[ChakraLines]

Jeez, what a way to go at such young ages. I wonder where those craven apologists re Cologne 2016 are now ...... explanation please! Eleven Cologne threads that were infested with the Regressive Left giving out all sorts of "reasons" for the sex attacks. What's the reason for Marseille then? The RLs leap to castigate whenever any liberal democratic govt commits a policy error, but ignore outrageous and murderous events such as this within Europe by newcomers.

But at least the Guardian carried this story; in 2016 they sat on their fat arses knowing what to do and how to minimise the sex attacks and rapes. The taharrush was not confined to Cologne but other EU countries too, though I think Finland got wind of it in time to block.