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(This is Part 2 of this Thread ) Do the Junior Doctors seriously think that they are still respected for always putting the interest of their individual patient first?

(8 Posts)
Lanchester Fri 06-May-16 00:51:20

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/a2622674-Junior-Doctors-Strike
The JDs' New Contracts are still in the news - so this is Part 2 of the thread
' Do the Junior Doctors seriously think that they are still respected for always putting the interest of their individual patient first?'

Lanchester Fri 06-May-16 00:52:36

Will the JD's compromise over the new contract Saturday working pay rates?

Mistigri Fri 06-May-16 13:15:48

"Weekend death rate problem, used to justify imposing the new contact, does not exist"

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/may/06/fewer-die-in-hospital-weekends-study-jeremy-hunt-doctors-contract?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

twofingerstoGideon Fri 06-May-16 14:17:38

Lanchester I was going to post on the previous thread, but felt there was little point in debating with someone who posts in the following manner:

Childish nonsense:
"The BMA are behaving like spoilt young adults. Jeremy Hunt is doing his duty for the population. Lets all support Jeremy. Three cheers for Jeremy Hunt. Hooray, Hooray, Hooray for Jeremy Hunt !"
And references to 'medical luvvies' (WTAF?)

Insults:
(to one poster):"You have low integrity and credibility"
(to another): "Despair? the rest of the population won't know whether to laugh at you or despise you for your unearned sense of entitlement."
(another...): "how is it that you sound so immature and self pitying?"

Unsubstantiated assertions :
"Jeremy Hunt has WIDE SUPPORT in the country for trying to reform the NHS for the benefit of patients."

I honestly don't know why anyone bothered to engage on your last thread or why they would bother now.

Lanchester Sat 07-May-16 13:59:34

twofingerstoGideon Fri 06-May-16 14:17:38

"I honestly don't know why anyone bothered to engage on your last thread or why they would bother now."

You are being disrespectful and insulting to Mumsnet posters in saying that

as it is you giving a twofingered salute

to all the

Many people have so far posted over 1000 entries on this thread!

Many of us have made detailed arguments on BOTH sides of this issue.

In contrast to their effort, all YOU can say is that you "can't be bothered".

You quote some things completely without context in your post.
There's not much point you - as you have done in your post - selectively editing some stuff and posting it out of context is there?

You accuse me of being insulting. You may think that, but it seems that you have not read the thread thoroughly, so you may not have 'bothered' to read the posts that were being criticised by me - for what were valid reasons.
In fact my opinions were also strongly challenged by some contributors.
But that is all part of an open exchange of views on a Mumsnet Talk Topic.

You could have criticised a number of other posters who were actually insulting
(for example those posters who thought it helped their argument to quote Jeremy Hunt's surname incorrectly by putting the first latter as a 'C' rather than an 'H')
but I respect even those posters more than I respect you because at least they were trying to promote discussion on this thread - whereas you twofingers are just trying to avoid and then smugly criticise the actual discussion

You say that it is an "Unsubstantiated assertion" to say that
"Jeremy Hunt has WIDE SUPPORT in the country for trying to reform the NHS for the benefit of patients."
Twofingers ....You may not like it (and I am not usually a Tory voter myself) .....
but the Tories had
reform of the NHS for the benefit of patients with regard to a 7 day NHS - as one of the most prominent items in their election manifesto - and they were elected with WIDE SUPPORT
That is the nature of democracy.
Maybe you don't respect the outcome of elections,?
Perhaps you "can't be bothered" with democracy either?

You say: "references to 'medical luvvies' (WTAF?)"
Well, as evidently you really couldn't be bothered to even read the thread properly, I will explain that term again here:
In this context 'Medical Luvvies' is a reference to a group of people with self referencing 'group think' opinions who all tell each other how relatively hard done by they are and how they are in fact 'simply marvels' and that their 'public simply love them' for their 'selfless dedication' - etc.
Their group think opinions of themselves becomes constantly mutually reinforced and emphasised by each other, and therefore the group self image gradually loses touch with the opinions of people outside their group as to the esteem and value that they are actually accorded by the 'man / woman in the street'.
Daahlings, aren't we doctors simply wonderful... everyone says so ! = Medical Luvvies

You say that it is "Childish nonsense" to post
"The BMA are behaving like spoilt young adults. Jeremy Hunt is doing his duty for the population. Lets all support Jeremy...."

again you might not like it twofingers .....but MANY people do believe that the BMA are acting unprofessionally and irresponsibly by withdrawing emergency cover - and in effect abandoning their duties and their sick patients, mainly to stop overtime rates being changed between early morning and 5pm on Saturdays despite a substantial basic rate payrise throughout the week (of about 13.5% ?)

MANY people do believe that the career (as a whole) benefits of being an NHS Doctor have become relatively very favourable (at public expense) over the years,
and that they are already now out of kilter with the
rewards and benefits (and job security) earnable by people with equivalently skilled jobs outside the NHS.
Various posters provided detailed information about (and links to) areas of discussion such as the NHS pensions and salaries and overtime rates - That information shows that there are ample rewards and career security for medics with pensions worth literally millions of pounds.
Those are already hugely subsidised for doctors by the population as a whole.

So yes many people do think that the BMA / JDs are behaving like spoilt young adults.
Unfortunately they are actually undermining the high regard in which the NHS has been held historically when previous generations of doctors never withdrew emergency care for strike leverage / (almost blackmail) purposes.

I think the JDs hours are too long, but we need to pay each JD less for working a shorter week, and the training needs to be extended fora year so that the JDs can get the experience that they require.
The population might support the BMA if they were going on strike to force the government to provide more doctors so that individual doctors would never have to work more than 48 hours (except in an emergency).

However, the BMA are in effect saying that they are quite happy to go on working excessive hours .......so long as it means they continue to earn lots of overtime.

Lanchester Sat 07-May-16 14:15:59

Whereas you twofingerstoGideon
say you can't "be bothered" to engage in this Mumsnet discussion....

Happily, MANY constructive people are happy to engage and discuss this topic, and they value this Mumsnet discussion

I quote post number 1000 which was:

*PausingFlatly Wed 04-May-16 11:17:44
Yes, thank you to all the people who took time to post really informatively on this thread. I've learned a lot more from it than from the mainstream media.*

YoungGirlGrowingOld Sun 08-May-16 17:04:41

Interestingly Lanchester there was an article in the Telegraph today about the care received by terminally ill patients at the weekend. As ever, the answer to the question of whether there is an adequate 7 day emergency cover in place under the present contract depends on which newspaper you read.

Lanchester Sun 08-May-16 20:56:16

Well I suppose it would be rather scandalous if terminally ill patients did not get 7 day full care.
It is obviously a good thing if they do.

I haven't read the telegraph article, but it sounds like maybe the article did not discuss NON-terminally ill patients who presumably are the vast majority of patients in NHS hospitals at the weekends?

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