BREXIT: Details of the secret TTIP negotiations have been leaked by Greenpeace

[Backpfeifengesicht]

Bravo Greenpeace for managing to publicise the truth on what's going on in these negotiations. The details are as terrifying as I had feared! It's looking more and more like the TTIP could be dead in the water and now that voters can the damaging details hopefully it's done for good. This turn of events makes me want to vote to stay in the EU as I'm 100% sure that if we leave our government will be begging the USA to sign away our rights in a TTIP agreement.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/ttip-leaks-shocking-what-are-they-eu-us-deal-a7010121.html

[ProfessorPreciseaBug]

Odd world we live in..
We recognise that TTIP is very bad for us so we should support something that is bad for us?

[lljkk]

how can they be leaked documents when they say they are result of FOI request?

[Backpfeifengesicht]

Here is a link to the Greenpeace website concerning the TTIP documents. Question #3 of the FAQs asks about how they got the documents. They are not revealing how they got the documents but they state that they are secret documents and nothing about a FOI request is mentioned, which makes sense as it was widely know that the negotiations were secret and not intended for full public disclosure.

ttip-leaks.org/

[Backpfeifengesicht]

lljkk - Oh okay, now I think I understand why your are under the impression that these documents were released under a FOI request. A different group in the UK submitted a FOI request for a report relating to analysis of the TTIP, slightly different. Here is an good article in Der Spiegel that summarizes the opposition to TTIP in Europe. Here is a quote:

"...Global Justice Now, a TTIP opponent group, recently used the Freedom of Information Act in the United Kingdom to force the release of one of the reports commissioned by the government there, which has been kept under wraps since 2013. In the report, researchers from the London School of Economics argued that the agreement contained many risks and brought few to no advantages. Prime Minister David Cameron held this devastating result secret -- and instead promoted TTIP to his citizens..."

www.spiegel.de/international/world/protest-movement-threatens-ttip-transatlantic-trade-deal-a-1091088.html

[Winterbiscuit]

TTIP may be rejected by the EU, but then again it might not. We don't know yet.

Cameron might push for TTIP, but if we succeed in leaving the EU, is Cameron really going to be making the decisions for much longer? Other leaders will probably come to the fore (I'd like to see Liam Fox or Daniel Hannan rather than Boris/Osborne). And we can vote for a change in government in the next general election.

Brexit is necessary to protect NHS from TTIP, says David Owen

Lord Owen has said “All I am saying is I want to be able to vote for the essence of the NHS to come back if we have a government that is not a Conservative one and I would say even that could possibly happen in 2020 although it is obviously more likely to be a longer period."

“We have got no chance whatever of going back unless we get out. Barbara Castle and I disagreed in 1975. I thought the common market would leave the NHS alone but she turned out to be more perceptive than me.”

[Winterbiscuit]

The sub-heading of the article about Lord Owen says:

"Former health secretary claims proposed trade deal between the US and the European Union could make any privatisation irreversible".

It seems that in the UK is required to gradually give up all its democracy, sovereignty, armed forces, public services, assets and powers irreversibly. Sounds to me like leaving the EU would be best.

[Mistigri]

This is a weird and illogical argument for voting leave given universal support for TTIP among senior Tories.

Like many EU decisions this will require unanimity, so if the Tories wanted to stop TTIP they could. Instead it is likely that the French will veto the proposals in their current form.

[Winterbiscuit]

So once the Tories are out, quite possibly after the next election, you don't want us to have the power to reclaim the NHS?

[blinkowl]

"So once the Tories are out, quite possibly after the next election, you don't want us to have the power to reclaim the NHS"

We're between a rock and a hard place.

Capitalism is eating our society, and the environment in which are able to sustain human civilisation.

Whether we stay or go, it's all on a path to getting sold off unless there is a fundamental change in politics, and in the understanding and will of the people.

Which doesn't seem to be happening right now.

[Mistigri]

Winterbiscuit, the EU is negotiating opt outs from TTIP for specific sectors such as state health services. You might ask yourself why Cameron & pals are not arguing the case for such opt outs.

How do you plan to "reclaim the NHS"? It will be very difficult to reverse privatisation once it has happened. Even more difficult in a rUk where the defection of Scotland may condemn the english people to permanent tory rule.

[Winterbiscuit]

Even more difficult in a rUk where the defection of Scotland may condemn the english people to permanent tory rule.

I'm not worried about that as I think even the English will tire of the Tories before too long. We're used to a change of government quite often and are naturally cynical if a government gets too big for its boots.

[Mistigri]

Then you are ignorant of how the FPTP system works. It would need huge swings to dislodge many English Tory MPs and the current redrawing of constituency boundaries will make it even harder for labour.

[Winterbiscuit]

Of course I know how FPTP works Mistigri.

We're voting on whether the UK should leave the EU with Scotland having chosen to remain part of the UK. It's speculation as to whether they'd leave, but even if they do, somehow I think the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland aren't going to just stick with the Tories for long.

Politics tends to balance out over time, as we've seen with the regular changes of party in leadership Past Prime Ministers. If the Tories ended up further to the right, perhaps due to spending too long in power, they'd lose support as they'd be even more biased towards the wealthy, and get themselves voted out. Labour would have probably filled in the gap by moving a bit further to the centre.

British people don't tend to like extremes, and aren't generally going to opt for either a right or left wing extreme. If a party goes too far in one direction, the chances are that the majority of people who have views towards the centre of politics will change their allegiance to get rid of them. I think this "balancing out" will happen even if Scotland leaves the UK.

[Mistigri]

Seriously, read this if you still think labour has a hope of winning a parliamentary majority in a rUK:

www.fabians.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/The-Mountain-to-Climb.pdf

[OTheHugeManatee]

This argument that we should stick with the EU because it will help protect us from the nasty Tories is just mad. Hasn't anyone on the left seen what the Troika is doing to Greece? (Clue: it involves LOTS of privatisation and slashing of benefits.)

Not to mention the idea that we should give up our democratic sovereignty to an unelected supranational bureaucracy in perpetuity, because we're afraid that otherwise the people might elect governments we don't like.

Has the left so utterly given up on democracy?

[Winterbiscuit]

Has the left so utterly given up on democracy?

Well said OTheHugeManatee. That's exactly what I was thinking earlier today.

[Mistigri]

If you want to make the argument for leaving as a means of stopping TTIP, you have to balance up the likelihood of a TTIP deal being struck by a future UK or rUK government.

A future rUK government would be far more likely to sign up to TTIP with no opt out for the NHS than an EU containing bolshy socialists is.

[MuddledMuse]

I'm a fence sitter trying to make sense of all the information. I found this video about an MEP trying to get access to the documents -

My concern is that we are getting TTIP whether we are in or out.

[redhotfire123]

It would be electoral suicide for a Tory Government to sign TTIP that put the NHS in danger....I don't think even they would be that stupid.

The 28 EU member states (and growing) have no concept like our NHS for their healthcare so I doubt they even consider it when looking at the details of TTIP

[Winterbiscuit]

at the video!

[OTheHugeManatee]

A future rUK government would be far more likely to sign up to TTIP with no opt out for the NHS than an EU containing bolshy socialists is.

Any future UK government would be extremely unwise to do anything so politically unpopular as sign up to a trade deal as widely protested as TTIP universally is. Because they can be voted out. Unlike those EU Commissioners, who are in record as saying - in the words of the Commissioner responsible for negotiating TTIP - 'I do not take my mandate from the European people'.

The current government was forced to U-turn on tax credits l, forced academia action etc because they know that ultimately they are elected and if they do something unpopular enough they will not be re-elected. In our system, thus, power ultimately resides with the electorate, not the government. This is absolutely not the case with the EU's unelected government, the EU Commission, who airily admit they do not take their mandate from the European people.

As for those 'bolshy socialists', would they be the ones forcing the privatisation of Piraeus port, or insisting on austerity measures that are driving 50% youth unemployment across the southern Med?

[blinkowl]

"It would be electoral suicide for a Tory Government to sign TTIP that put the NHS in danger....I don't think even they would be that stupid."

You are aware that they are currently systematically dismantling the NHS and selling it off bit by bit, no?

[Backpfeifengesicht]

Muddled - thanks for that video. I had heard about the deliberate difficulties MEPs faced in accessing TTIP documents, this is very depressing. TTIP may be dead in the water in it's current state but I have no doubt it will be brought about in the end.

I honestly cannot decide whether an eventual, inevitable TTIP agreement would be better negotiated by the EU despite their horrendous undemocratic secrecy. They did actually draw a line in the sand about certain things. Or would we be better out of the EU, with global markets opened up to us again and personally I would be happy if we were at the back of the queue to draw up any trade deal with the USA. I can at least hope that the tories will be out of government before they can give away the country in a trade deal like that.