Labour and anti-semitism

(1000 Posts)
LeLaluifleur Sun 10-Apr-16 09:15:38

Apologies for DF links but ignoring the lowbrow style 'journalism' for a minute, I am perturbed about these reports.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3531852/Labour-councillor-20-suspended-claims-called-Hitler-greatest-man-history-latest-anti-Semitic-scandal-hit-Corbyn-s-party.html#comments

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3532042/Ignorant-Godless-Hateful-Corbyn-s-contempt-Jews-disgrace-withering-attack-Labour-leader-donor-backed-party-400-000-2015-Election.html

I like Corbyn a little bit but judge his cavalier attitude to anti-semitism harshly.

Has anti-semitism become cool among labour supporters or something? What is being done about the anti-semitism coming from some labour politicians and how to deal with the Islamist flavour of anti-semitism as displayed by Labour councillor Aysegul Gurbuz (and others) for examples who posted statements such as this on twitter :

"Ed Miliband is Jewish. He will never become prime minister of Britain."
"Adolf Hitler was praised as the ‘greatest man in history".

shock sad

LeLaluifleur Sun 10-Apr-16 09:16:47

and angry very angry.

BertrandRussell Sun 10-Apr-16 09:33:42

Being Jewish and being Zionist are not the same thing.

Ciggaretteandsmirnoff Sun 10-Apr-16 09:35:15

Agree whole heartedly with bert

Valmur Sun 10-Apr-16 09:36:38

Bertrand those tweets are not about Zionism but Judaism.

LittleMisslovesspiders Sun 10-Apr-16 09:38:10

The party needs to seriously get a grip on this.

WhiskyTangoFoxtrot Sun 10-Apr-16 09:39:35

If Tories were saying the same, they would be excoriated for it.

BertrandRussell Sun 10-Apr-16 09:43:11

The tweets appear to be from a hijacked account. The person concerned has been rightly suspended pending investigation.The comments in the other article which do not directly relate to those tweets are about Zionism, not Judaism.

Helmetbymidnight Sun 10-Apr-16 09:50:22

I was astounded that people could read these articles and the first comment is once again about those (silly) Jews confusing anti Semitism with anti Zionism.

And then I realised it was you Bertrand - thank goodness setting the Jews right!

LeLaluifleur Sun 10-Apr-16 09:54:04

"Being Jewish and being Zionist are not the same thing."
Agreed.

If these tweets I quoted above are authentic zionism doesn't really picture, does it? It is plain, age old ant-semtism, wouldn't you agree?

Getting back to my original question, the language being used by some labour representatives when referring to people who are Jewish sounds pretty vile but because of the contentious situation in Israel some people seem to feel justified to use anti-Semitic rhetoric.

We live in a diverse culture where such non-sense should not be supported, especially not by the Labour party.

BertrandRussell Sun 10-Apr-16 09:56:45

"If these tweets I quoted above are authentic zionism doesn't really picture, does it? It is plain, age old ant-semtism, wouldn't you agree?"

Absolutely. That's why the councillor has been suspended while her claims that her account was hijacked are being investigated.

LeLaluifleur Sun 10-Apr-16 10:03:40

"Pushed by Sun correspondent Harry Cole on whether he believed his brother had been wrong to post the tweet, Mr Corbyn said: “No my brother isn't wrong. My brother has his point of view, I have mine. We actually fundamentally agree - we are a family that has been fighting racism from the day we were born. My mother was at Cable Street.""
www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/156191/jeremy-corbyn-says-his-brother-was-not-wrong

I find it odd that Corbyn defends himself against the allegations by referring to his super duper family who are allegedly so 'ant'-racist'.Why bring his mother into it?

also www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/05/labour-party-corbyn-antisemitism-anti-jewish-british-left

"A deeper truth is that latent anti-Jewish feeling has always resided in some segments of British civil society, including elements of the British left, long before Jeremy Corbyn was a twinkle in anyone’s eye. More recently, it has been inflamed by the rising passions surrounding the unresolved clash between Palestinians and Israelis, which in turn have unleashed more sinister impulses."

Labour suspend activist who tweeted Jews have big noses

BertrandRussell Sun 10-Apr-16 10:10:11

"A deeper truth is that latent anti-Jewish feeling has always resided in some segments of British civil society, including elements of the British left, long before Jeremy Corbyn was a twinkle in anyone’s eye. More recently, it has been inflamed by the rising passions surrounding the unresolved clash between Palestinians and Israelis, which in turn have unleashed more sinister impulses."

Well, that's certainly true. As evidenced by George Osborne's name change.

But it must remain possible to be openly anti Zionist without being called anti Semitic. Many Jewish people are anti Zionist.

LeLaluifleur Sun 10-Apr-16 10:10:26

to add I have changed my position on Palestine many time in my life from feeling incensed to understanding how people who have ben persecuted throughout history are now fighting 'tooth and nail' to defend their bit.

Interesting how islamist terrorism is sometimes excused and explained by people saying Muslim immigrants have had bad experiences living in the West yet Jewish people who have been killed and harassed and nearly extinguished in Europe over centuries are not given a similar 'psychological' 'defines'. Sorry not very articulate here but hope i get across what i mean.

Its' not about which group has it worse for me but about some people on the left having very hypercritical attitudes regarding the Jewish population.

LeLaluifleur Sun 10-Apr-16 10:11:14

"
But it must remain possible to be openly anti Zionist without being called anti Semitic."

are these people as vehemently and politically outspoken against Saudia Arabia's antics?

BertrandRussell Sun 10-Apr-16 10:12:13

"Interesting how islamist terrorism is sometimes excused and explained by people saying Muslim immigrants have had bad experiences living in the West "

Is it? Bloody hell- who by?

BertrandRussell Sun 10-Apr-16 10:15:08

Do you think that I, and people like me should be able to be openly anti Zionist without being accused of anti semitism?

mimishimmi Sun 10-Apr-16 10:16:38

There's a problem. People are hugely upset about mass immigration and the wars in the ME and prominent Jewish organizations have pushed for both of those. It was under the premise of 'never again' but those who have suffered the most from the subsequent policies did not participate in the holocaust - many fought the Nazis and are now wondering from seeing what is going on now, just how much collaboration and corruption there was then too. Those non-Jewish families who also lost everything in WW1 & WW2 (40 million Europeans died) have different accounts of what happened and it's led to a very serious demographic decline . It's a massive powder keg situation.

sticks2 Sun 10-Apr-16 10:23:01

Agree with you OP about Labour's anti-semitism. It's part of a much wider problem. You won't get much agreement/support here though

LeLaluifleur Sun 10-Apr-16 10:25:09

"Do you think that I, and people like me should be able to be openly anti Zionist without being accused of anti semitism?" Why do you ask?

Somebody who criticises Israel for specific actions cannot be accused of anti-Semitism for that, however sadly the rhetoric anti-zionists apply is often hateful about Jews as well or at least such rhetoric is not always challenged robustly.

LeLaluifleur Sun 10-Apr-16 10:27:48

Saying that, ime pro palatine activists often display pretty passive aggressive or even openly hostile attitudes, about their cause, i have seen these people at various family events over the years and they come across a bit like antiabortionists, very self righteous and narrow minded. I am referring to people here who have tried to involve me in their charity at various events. I was not impressed.

BertrandRussell Sun 10-Apr-16 10:31:30

I ask because one of the links you give was to a piece of anti Zionism, not anti semitism, but you and the Daily Mail, that bastion of liberalism, conflated the two.

I have been in the past, lambasted as an anti Semite on Mumsnet because I am openly anti Zionist and opposed to infant male circumcision. Obfuscating on this issue is a way of shutting down debate. People become afraid to speak out about the government of israel's policies because they are afraid of being labelled as anti Semitic. And opposition becomes impossible.

BertrandRussell Sun 10-Apr-16 10:32:52

"the rhetoric anti-zionists apply is often hateful about Jews as well"

Is it? Not in my experience.

BertrandRussell Sun 10-Apr-16 10:34:13

"and they come across a bit like antiabortionists, very self righteous and narrow minded."

Ah.

Time for me to leave, I think.

LeLaluifleur Sun 10-Apr-16 13:57:53

Betrand I wasn't aware of your particular interest and views but thank you for clarifying.

"you and the Daily Mail, that bastion of liberalism, conflated the two."

Not to my knowledge, I didn't. I am aware of the meaning of zionism and anti-Semitism and I did not post about Zionism, you introduced the topic yourself Bert. I posted links to articles discussing Labour's lax attitudes to potentially intrinsic anti-semitism that was clearly not the focus of my OP, not anti-zionism.

The state of Israel, wow, I am a lay person with an interest in current affairs but have no flipping clue what to think about the situation but I know that the affairs in that region of the world puzzle, sadden and worry me. I am not going to be drawn into a discussion on that though as it is not what i posted about. I posted because i find it astounding and am disgusted that it seems to become increasingly acceptable to apply anti-semitic rhetoric which goes unchallenged - and I am particularly shocked that Labour could be blasé about this. Yes there have been suspensions but Vicky K has been reinstated as far as I'm aware.

Vicki Kirby, vice chair of the Labour’s Woking branch tweeted "Jews have big noses and “slaughter the oppressed”.

Bert were you aware of this? If not this is a grand example how so called 'anti-zionism' is getting a tad emotional and language suddenly sounds like anti-Semitism slogans popular with neo-nazis.

As a first reaction to MS Kirby's slur Jeremy Corbyn’s office initially rejected calls for MS Kirby's suspension. This is what I'm talking about. I am thinking wtf shock

Another of her tweets:
“I will never forget and I will make sure my kids teach their children how evil Israel is”, she wrote in one message."

also:"In another she said: “Apparently you can ask IS/ISIS/ISIL questions on ask.fm. Anyone thought of asking them why they’re not attacking the real oppressors #Israel?”

Sounds not like a rational politician but a hateful one who publicly endorses one of the most fucked up 'terror' group imaginable and cannot be trusted. Corby did not jump on this to kick her out, why?

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