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woman in UK to stand trial for attempting to bring about an abortion

(22 Posts)
Pangurban1 Tue 12-Jan-16 15:12:38

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/21-year-old-northern-irish-woman-to-stand-trial-for-having-abortion-a6807391.html

As it said for 'attempting to terminate her own pregnancy and one of aiding someone else to "miscarry".

Despite the November high court ruling.

Pangurban1 Tue 12-Jan-16 15:14:12

and it is life imprisonment is NI, I think.

cdtaylornats Wed 13-Jan-16 00:18:03

It will end up in the Supreme Court eventually on appeal and get tossed under Human Rights law I would think.

ReallyTired Mon 25-Jan-16 10:47:04

The issue is not abortion itself so much as a non medically qualified person attempting to carry out an abortion. She could have killed the other woman so I think she does deserve jail. A life sentence is excessive though. It would have been better for both of the women to have gone to England where the abortions could be carried out safely. Are there charities in Ireland that help with travel costs?

I do have sympathy with women who do not have access to safe and legal abortion. However DIY abortions are illegal for very good reason.

Melonaire Mon 25-Jan-16 10:51:41

This isn't about 'DIY abortions.' It's about taking what's known as the abortion pill.

From Marie Stopes

'There are two different types of medication used for a medical abortion at Marie Stopes - Mifepristone and Misoprostol. You'll take the two sets of tablets over two visits which causes the passing of the pregnancy.

The Mifepristone medication stops the hormone progesterone working. Without this hormone, the pregnancy is unable to continue as it detaches from the uterus (womb). After taking the first tablets, most women can carry on with everyday life. However you might experience some cramping and bleeding. It's fine to take painkillers such as Ibuprofen.

The second Misoprostol tablets will then be given 6 hours, 24 hours or 48 hours after the Mifepristone. This will cause the uterus (womb) to contract and will result in cramping, bleeding and the pregnancy being expelled.

Once the first tablets have been taken, if you change your mind and decide to continue with the pregnancy we cannot guarantee that the foetus will not be damaged. '

Melonaire Mon 25-Jan-16 10:52:51

In Northern Ireland you can't access the pills but you can get them posted to you from overseas.

Melonaire Mon 25-Jan-16 10:55:41

www.womenonweb.org

I would imagine the woman in question used something like this.

ReallyTired Mon 25-Jan-16 11:03:43

In England abortion pills have to be prescribed. The woman's medical history is known and the gestation of the pregnancy us checked. Inappropriate prescribing of abortion pills might harm the mother. What would happen if the abortion pills failed to kill the foetus? Is there are risk of a severely disabled child being born? What happens if the mother bleeds? Unless the woman is a doctor she has no idea what she is taking or even if the drug is fake.

Ordering abortion pills over the Internet is illegal for good reason. Just like ordering morphine over the Internet is illegal.

ReallyTired Mon 25-Jan-16 11:06:07

Women who are having an abortion need emotional support. What about the risk of an unsupported Roman committing suicide?

I hope that NI changes its abortion laws, but DIY abortions are not a solution.

Melonaire Mon 25-Jan-16 11:06:30

A medical history is taken and a prescription is given by some of the providers.

ReallyTired Mon 25-Jan-16 11:06:49

Dratted iPad. I meant unsupported woman, not Roman!

Melonaire Mon 25-Jan-16 11:07:53

'Women who are having an abortion need emotional support'

Ideally, yes, from friends and family.

ReallyTired Mon 25-Jan-16 11:11:36

"A medical history is taken and a prescription is given by some of the providers."

That is stupid. A doctor needs to see a woman in person before prescribing such a potent drug. A doctor cannot do an in depth medical examination by email. It's not just measuring blood pressure, but mental wellbeing as well.

Ordering or supplying abortion pills via the Internet is irresponsible.

Melonaire Mon 25-Jan-16 11:23:56

An in depth medical examination? What exactly do you think happens?

ReallyTired Mon 25-Jan-16 12:48:10

"An in depth medical examination? What exactly do you think happens?"

I hope that the woman is asked that she is really sure that this is what she wants. I feel that the woman should be asked questions about her mental wellbeing. (Ie. is she mentally well enough/ competant to make a decision to have an abortion?) I have to admit that I have no idea as I have never had an abortion. Maybe stupidly, I would hope that the woman would have a general medical and questions like when her last known period was or gestation of pregnancy would be checked. I might stupidly think that a doctor would actually check that she was really pregnant before she is prescribed abotion inducing medication.

She would be need to be told what levels of bleeding to expect. She would have a run down of the risks assocatied with the abortion inducing drug. Does these drugs carry a risk of infertility or cancer for example? Is it OK to take alochol with these drugs? Is it safe to drive or look after young children?

Maybe there is medication that might conflict with Mifepristone and Misoprostol. Would an abortant mess up drugs that a mother might be taking for controlling conditons like bi polar or epilesy or a heart condition? Unless you are a phamacist or a doctor you have no way of knowing.

I am not anti abortion, but I feel that power drugs like Mifepristone and Misoprostol require an element of medical supervision. They could be a controlled substance like morphine. Some random over the internet knows nothing about the woman who is being sent drugs in the post.
I wish that northern ireland had the same abortion laws as England. In England mail order abortions are illegal for good reason.

Mel0naire Mon 25-Jan-16 14:41:11

'Is she mentally well enough/competent to make a decision to have an abortion?' hmm

You assume women aren't given medical advice and you really don't seem to have much faith in the women, even to know if they're pregnant!

ReallyTired Mon 25-Jan-16 14:55:33

"You assume women aren't given medical advice and you really don't seem to have much faith in the women, even to know if they're pregnant!"

You cannot make any assumptions about half the human population.

There maybe scared 14 year olds who have missed their period. An immature teen in ireland may lack access to pregnancy testing or medical advice. They maybe utterly terrified how their parents or teachers might react if its known they have had underage sex. A young teen might be under pressure from their boyfriend to take a pill bought over the internet.

'Is she mentally well enough/competent to make a decision to have an abortion?'

This case was refered to court because doctors were not sure that this woman had the mental capacity due to delusions. In England doctors quite rightly referred this case to court.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/10072388/Woman-with-severe-mental-disorder-given-right-to-have-abortion-by-judge.html

A big reason why a face to face medical examination is needed is that people lie across the internet. You have no idea who is selling or buying the pills. I can sympathise that there are women in Northern Ireland desperate for an abortion, but buying online abortion pills is not good.

The law needs to be changed rather than having what essentially is a back street abortion via internet.

Mel0naire Mon 25-Jan-16 15:25:22

Taking a safe, tested drug is not having a 'back street abortion.'

You say you've never had an abortion? I've had two. One of them using these pills. If they had been illegal where I was living I would still have taken them. If paracetamol or augmentin were illegal in this country on moral grounds would it stop people taking them when they needed to?

ReallyTired Mon 25-Jan-16 15:47:49

In England abortion pills aren't exactly over the counter medication. Why does it matter whether someone has an abortion or not. Everyone has a right to an opinion, even if they are a male celibate Catholic priest who lives in the Vatican.

It is quite reasonable to think that powerful medication should be prescribed by a doctor. English law does not allow people to buy prescription medication over the Internet. It is illegal to buy the mildest of anti biotics without a prescription yet alone something powerful like an abortion inducing agent.

Someone who has lots of repeat abortions needs help. A doctor is a good place to start. Sadly such women are denied access to proper healthcare in Ireland.

Tutt Mon 25-Jan-16 17:32:53

Abortion pills have to have 2 doctors signatures, medical history and aren't available to take at home.
In NI it has to be an extreme case for any termination to take place leaving these poor woman with a expensive choice of coming to mainland UK for treatment.
It's cruel and for her to have gone to such lengths she must have been in a desperate situation.
The laws need to be changed.

Tutt Mon 25-Jan-16 17:36:33

Also the pills are taken under medical supervision in a clinic or hospital for the safety of woman.
Also by law woman have to be asked and sure if this is treatment that they want.
There are safe guarding rules and if for one second when they get to appointments the doctor/nurse thinks the woman is being coerced/forced etc then these safe guarding elements are put into action.

SilentlyScreamingAgain Tue 26-Jan-16 14:34:37

I agree that it’s criminal that women in NI are in a position where they are taking abortion pills without access to medical assistance or psychological support. However, I see those given no option but to take these pill, alone and unsupported, as the victims and the fuckwits in Stormont as being the ones who should be locked-up

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