What the hell? Shooting in US centre for disabled people.

[BertieBotts]

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34987697

This is sickening. Any shooting is but this has really upset me for some reason. :(

[HeartsTrumpDiamonds]

When the fuck are they going to start addressing the gun problem.

At a quarter to never, that's when.

[BertieBotts]

It's ridiculous. The 355th mass shooting this year, apparently. One of the news sites has a graphic showing all of them.

[SewingAndCakes]

It's awful. They're looking for a number of suspects and the bomb squad is there apparently.

[lljkk]

3 shooters, THREE. I can't remember another incident with 3 culprits (that wasn't religion-excuse terrorism). And a suspicious device... (argh).

They were doing regular drills in case of an active shooter like this, since last yr.

[chilledwarmth]

Non-US mumsnetters might like to know that California has some of the strictest gun control measures in the US. It clearly didn't help them here, so maybe someone could explain why they are arguing for the rest of the US to adopt similar legislation.

My opinion, as someone who carries daily, is that these events are often used as an argument for greater restrictions on what civilians can own and carry, but I don't think this will have results the British seem to think it will. Whatever weapon policies you find work best in your own country is your own business and none of mine, but we are a different culture to you. I don't think we need more laws, just better enforcement of the ones currently in place. I've never been a fan of the extreme gun control laws you have in Europe. It seems to be the logic that if you tell a shooter that his gun is illegal to possess, he will concede defeat, apologize unreservedly for breaking the law, and stop killing people. But you've got to ask, if he's willing to murder people, is making his gun illegal to carry really going to deter him, and clearly it's not.

[lljkk]

I'm from SoCal but live in UK, ChilledW. I also come from a pro-gun control family (yes, such American really do exist!).

You might want to read up on what the "extreme laws" are in Europe, such as in gun-loving Switzerland. But they don't have events like what happened at the IRC today. Maybe we can at least agree that there are some huge cultural influences going on.

[chilledwarmth]

I know that Switzerland has what I'd consider common sense laws but in general the rest of Europe is pretty extreme. But at any rate I do agree that there are cultural influences. The fact that violent crime is very low in Switzerland despite a high level of gun ownership contradicts the main argument of the gun control lobby, that any civilian who owns a gun is irresistibly compelled to go and slaughter people with it.

[lljkk]

Just out of interest, ChilledW, how do you feel about Black Lives Matter ?

[chilledwarmth]

These people? "Black Lives Matter (BLM) is an international activist movement, originating in the African American community, that campaigns against violence toward black people"

I agree with what their stated aim is, that unlawful violence should be stopped and the perpetrators face justice for it.

[VestalVirgin]

It seems to be the logic that if you tell a shooter that his gun is illegal to possess, he will concede defeat, apologize unreservedly for breaking the law, and stop killing people. But you've got to ask, if he's willing to murder people, is making his gun illegal to carry really going to deter him, and clearly it's not.

No, the logic is that if you tell a law-abiding citizen that his gun is illegal, he will turn it in, and in ten years from then, when he really wants to kill his wife, won't have a weapon.
Or his son won't have a weapon to take and shoot the girls who won't date him.
Or his toddler grandson won't have a gun to shoot an other toddler with.

The world is not cleanly separated into criminals and non-criminals.


It is possible that the laws that work in Europe don't work in the US, as every household there already has several guns, and preventing new ones from being bought will only have an impact when the old ones are broken.

However, not letting known criminals buy guns would be a first step in the right direction.

[Twinkie1]

I don't think stopping the general populace from carrying a lethal weapon is extreme but fuck me mass shootings are few and far between here in good old Blighty.

Carrying a weapon is enshrined in your Constitition but so was slavery and prohibition as far as I'm aware and you saw the good sense in amending those little nuggets.

[nancy75]

My Knowledge on this is a bit sketchy (told by my Aussie DH) in 1996 there was a mass shooting in a place called Port Arthur, Tasmania. 35 People were killed.
In a direct response to the shooting the Australian government introduced strict gun control laws and over half a million guns were handed in. Australia has never had another incident of this kind.

From what DH has told me there was some resistance to the new laws by a few groups but people on the whole were so shocked by what had happened that they were queuing up to give their guns in. Why does American react in such a different way?

[Potterwolfie]

Tighter gun control isn't the answer. The only thing which would have any impact would be a massive change in public opinion about owning and carrying a gun. But that requires a desire to change, and would take generations, and there is pretty much zero appetite for thay level of change.

When you have a culture where little children are given blue or pink rifles as birthday presents, they grow up thinking gun ownership is a normal, positive thing and a right...which it is, under the US constitution, to protect themselves against a tyrannical government, which may have been relevant 200 years ago, but not so mug these days.

I've lived in Texas where friends had guns locked up, or on their person, or under their beds. Did it make me feel safer? No, it terrified me. People own guns because of fear, and that's not an environment I can be comfortable in. My DCs had to do fire drills, tornado drills and intruder drills in elementary school. That still knocks me sick even though we are now back in the UK. People are lobbying for students on university campuses to have the right to carry guns...sure, give an 18 year old emotionally immature male away from home for the first time, drunk or on drugs, a gun to settle his arguments with his room mate. It's unbelievable.

[chilledwarmth]

Hi VestalVirgin, I reject what you're saying. You really think that if you take away his gun, and he wants to kill his wife, he won't just go into the kitchen and get a knife? At that point would you then demand that law abiding people be stripped of their knives, both the ones they carry day to day and the ones in their kitchen drawers, so that hopefully the next domestic murderer won't kill his wife?

[Twinkie1]

Chilledwarmth it's a huge difference from actually plunging a knife into someone to pulling a trigger, one takes brute force and physical presence, the other can be a very detached act.

[Caprinihahahaha]

It's also very difficult for a man to arrive at a location and stab multiple people. Possible but far far less likely.

The idea that the only difference between the extreme rarity of mass shootings in the UK and the increasing and shocking frequency in the USA is attitude or inclination is pretty damning of the American psyche surely.

I think you gave to be deeply thick or quite determinedly obtuse to ignore the availability of guns as the critical difference.

[talkiinpeace]

Only the USA has daily mass shootings.
Only the USA has the NRA
Gun control works
That is why Australia has not had a mass shooting in over 20 years.
That is why Europe looks at the Americans wanting to take guns into schools and ask Will you never learn

speaking as a born and bred Yank BTW

[Roussette]

There has been more than one thread on this subject and each time there is a smattering of 'gun apologists' and it doesn't matter how many facts, figures, tables, proof, you show them, nothing will change the mindset of a poster who feels they have the right to carry a gun. Madness.

Look at Australia and the changes in legislation they made that worked.

Guns have killed more US citizens in the past 50 years than any war they have been involved in ever. There have been fewer than 20 terror related deaths in the US since 9/11 but there's been 364,000 deaths caused by privately owned firearms. Madness.

Until the NRA stops bankrolling politicians, nothing will change.

No doubt someone will post disputing all this or insisting that gun ownership is 'a right'. The mindset needs to change over there. Don't think it ever will. Gun use is out of control.

[chilledwarmth]

Hey Capri, no not "thick" or "obtuse", just expressing a different opinion to yours. The availability of guns is not the critical difference. Switzerland just about has a gun in every home and yet has virtually no violent crime. If you wanted to make the argument to me that the cause of mass shootings is related to the availability of guns I'd need an explanation from you as to why Switzerland doesn't have any/much. Twinkie not sure who told you that you can detach yourself from pulling a trigger but not from sticking a knife in someone but they were very wrong. Neither takes any real degree of physical exertion but both are VERY mentally straining, you can't just pull a trigger and not feel anything, any more than you can plunge a knife into someone and not feel anything.

Roussette, all of these shootings happen in places where guns aren't allowed. These shootings are basically the result of gun control, so I really don't understand why anyone would want to make the entire country a gun free zone, when you've seen how dangerous the current gun free zones can be. To date I've never known a gunman to have paused in the middle of his crime and though "let me check the local gun laws to see if I'm allowed to carry this". Gun control is the theory that if you tell the good guy and bad guy they both can't have guns, they will both obey you. Reality shows that the good guy obeys you, the bad guy doesn't, and the good guy gets killed by the bad guy.

I believe that it is a cultural thing rather than any direct correlation. Switzerland has a very high level of gun ownership and almost no violent crime at all. Maybe different kinds of legislation work better in different cultures. A lot of Americans look at England and your gun laws and how worried you guys seem to be about crime (there's a lot of "I'd feel to scared to challenge this guy/girl/group as they are bigger than me") and I wonder "will you never learn", that if you changed your gun laws you would be a lot safer and feel more confident. But many of you probably look at America and think it's wrong for some of us to be carrying. I would say that neither view is an absolute right, we are cultures apart, and maybe what we find works for us wouldn't work for you, and what you find works for you wouldn't works for us. What we can all agree on is that this shooting was a terrible incident, and condolences to all victims and families.

[talkiinpeace]

Switzerland just about has a gun in every home and yet has virtually no violent crime.
Not automatic weapons though.
Each family has an Army issue rifle - they are all reservists.

when you've seen how dangerous the current gun free zones can be
What, like Australia?

we are cultures apart,
Well no actually, I have an eagle on my passport.

[Roussette]

Sorry chilled don't get it. Don't understand how you can dispute 364,000 killings with privately owned weapons. They are obviously not in places where guns aren't allowed. Don't understand how you dispute how Australia took control of their gun culture and changed it. Drastically.

Re your point on stabbings. I've never heard of mass stabbings but time and time again I've heard of mass shootings, mostly in the US.

With ref to your last para, I can honestly say I am not worried about crime, I am not scared to challenge and believe me I have never spoken or met or read online anyone from the UK who wants our country to have guns laws changed and guns freely owned to be safer! Why would we, when we have the US as an example of something badly wrong? I do however agree with the difference in cultures on this subject.

this cover everything for me.

[nancy75]

chilled people might not stop mid shoot out and wonder if the gun is legal, thats true but what you don't seem able to grasp is that in the majority of situations they wouldn't have a gun in the first place because they wouldn't be able to get one.
Most people in the UK would not have the first clue about how to get a gun, which is why we don't have pissed off kids shooting the schoolmates.

[chilledwarmth]

talkininpeace we don't allow citizens to own automatic weapons either. When I talk about gun free zones I'm referring to the places like cinemas and schools where these shootings are often carried out. That's how safe gun control keeps you - The good guys don't have weapons, the bad guys don't listen to the signs. We've already told them once that they can't take their weapons into those places, why are you proposing that the only measures we take is just tell them again that they aren't allowed.

nancy I have grasped that that's what you're claiming will happen, but I'm disputing that it holds any basis in reality. What makes you think they would decide not to get a gun, or that they wouldn't be able to get one? "most people in the UK...." isn't relevant, maybe things work differently in your country but here a gun ban would have no effect on the bad guys ability to get weapons, and would have an unacceptably massive impact on the good guys by preventing them from being able to defend themselves. If you want to remove my right to carry a weapon, will you personally escort me everywhere 24/7, and throw your life on the line to defend me if I ever get attacked? If you're not willing to do that, you have no right to remove my ability to protect myself.

[talkiinpeace]

When I talk about gun free zones I'm referring to the places like cinemas and schools where these shootings are often carried out. That's how safe gun control keeps you
When I talk about a gun free zone I mean a whole city
my approach works

we don't allow citizens to own automatic weapons
but semi automatic and pump action ARE allowed
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-35000998
Wearing military-style clothing and armed with assault rifles and semi-automatic handguns, Farook returned with Malik a short time later to open fire.

Nobody NEEDS a semi automatic
nobody NEEDS a pump action
nobody NEEDS a 20 shot handgun

in the city where I live I last saw a non police gun over 10 years ago (and the guy was being arrested without firing it)
nobody having guns in a 100 mile radius is a much better method than single buildings surrounded by private arsenals