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The SNP have played a blinder

(45 Posts)
Shouldof Tue 14-Jul-15 09:27:17

They take the topic of fox hunting, something still legal in Scotland in the form proposed for England and Wales. They oppose the change, which hardly any "man on the street" English will disagree with, in fact many will be thrilled that they could send the vote in their favour (ie anti fox hunting) and the. When the next vote comes along where SNP decide to vote to ban something in England that is legal in Scotland they have a precedent where not only was it accepted unopposed but most supported their move and no English votes for English laws proponent has a leg to stand on.

Bravo Nicola sturgeon (or more likely her canny advisers).

Do you think this fox hunting vote will make it difficult for English votes for English laws moving forward?

Not put this on the FH thread because it's less about that and more about the snp votes on English matters going forward...

Shouldof Tue 14-Jul-15 09:29:21

Oops sorry just realise someone has also posted about this but it wasn't clear to me from the thread title.

Isitmebut Tue 14-Jul-15 10:20:52

As you have started another thread I'll repeat 'one I prepared earlier' re Sturgeon and the SNP's constant whining.

Scotland’s SNP Westminster S.A.S. (Sturgeon’s Awkward Squad) MP’s do NOTHING BUT whine, asking for evermore powers when thy don’t use the ones given e.g. to soak their rich, increasing THEIR welfare/benefits, and now insisting that England’s voters should NOT have a final say in England only matters.

It appears that all 56 SNP MP’s do is just make more self interest ‘noise’ whether it makes sense to anyone else and if anything, turn people off Scotland.

In the Westminster PMQT the other week, including the SNP leaders questions, they had I believe FIVE questions, and ALL of them basically challenged the SAME issue, that England should vote on English only issues as Scotland’s Holyrood has the final say on THEIR issues e.g. Scotland charge no university fees, yet Scottish Westminster MP’s carried Labour’s policy to START charging students studying in English universities.

As to Sturgeon’s whinge on the radio earlier today that ‘Cameron does not respect the SNP’;

The problem is Sturgeon campaigned and sold the Scottish electorate a pup that Scottish democracy sending 56 Westminster MP’s representing 5 million in Scotland (of the 64 million population within the UK) would DICTATE the much larger UK’s policies.

Didn’t the socialists in Greece used to piggy backing their ‘nice’ economy/spending off of their EU membership just make a similar mistake, thinking that their democracy is more important than the democracies within the other 18 Eurozone members citizens?

Sturgeon and her SNP if anything, needs to have more respect for those OUTSIDE Scotland.

As with Brent Oil around $56 a barrel (half of what they were COUNTING on a year ago) as if not still in the UK and within the old Barnett Formula (paid come what may) as Scotland receives £10,500 per head versus £8,500 per head in the same England the SNP INSISTS shouldn’t have the rights of Scotland to have the final say in own issues – Scotland would be economically ‘Donald’, as in Donald Ducked.

December 2014; “Oil rout would have wrecked an independent Scotland’s finances”
www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d97d49ce-877d-11e4-bc7c-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3Mci5L4Nj

Isitmebut Tue 14-Jul-15 10:22:35

The SNP now insist that they should have a vote in English & Welsh foxhunting legislation that brings our laws in line with Scotland; the fox still gets shot, but a pack rather than two dogs would be allowed to flush the fox out, which is quite useful for farmers losing livestock needing to cover a large area.

The S.A.S like a child in a playgroup grabbing other children’s toys, with the excuse ‘I was thinking about it first’, now say that THEY were looking to adopt the English & Welsh foxhunting law - as if they’d ever ‘lower’ themselves. lol

Pagwatch Tue 14-Jul-15 10:26:28

God I'm not sure.
I'm against fox hunting and will be delighted at the result but I think it looks awful and gives Cameron ammunition for when he tries to limit Scottish MPs voting on English matters.

I think massive own goal.

Isitmebut Tue 14-Jul-15 10:33:01

As to another SNP ‘blinder’ today, with Sturgeon’s head so far up her own self important arse she can't see UK ‘membership’ reality?

Does anyone remember around a year ago when Scottish businesses, faced with an Independent Scotland with its potentially piddly and volatile currency and no interest rate/capital markets, were looking to ‘break for the border’ in droves????

'Record' year for inward investment to Scotland
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-33508453

”Scotland has enjoyed a record year for inward investment, First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has announced.”

"It is clear that Scotland has now firmly established itself, outside of London, as the most successful part of the UK for attracting international investment."

Your inward investment is because you REMAINED in the UK dear, rather than your constant threats to take your Scottish budget deficit economy and join the queue to become an EU member, who apparently are less dictatorial to dodgy socialist economies than Westminster. lololol

Isitmebut Tue 14-Jul-15 10:38:06

A MASSIVE 'own goal' as the fox hunting by pack rather than two dogs vote has been pulled and no doubt tried again after rushing through 'English votes for English laws'.

Thank you SNP, you just hardened the Conservatives resolve to keep your noses out of our matters e.g. the start of tuition fees in ENGLAND several years ago.

Shouldof Tue 14-Jul-15 10:47:02

I think Cameron trying to limit snp votes on English matters after snp votes defeat his fox hunting amendment will make him look like a petty poor loser and he will have to tread very carefully.

People can't shout cheerily for SNP to vote this time and then pull the rug next week.

Shouldof Tue 14-Jul-15 10:58:00

Vote now delayed to prevent SNP from voting. Cameron will get slayed for this IMO. It's the wrong way to try and get the English votes thing through because it smacks of self interest on a very controversial issue...

muminhants1 Tue 14-Jul-15 11:03:27

Thank you SNP, you just hardened the Conservatives resolve to keep your noses out of our matters e.g. the start of tuition fees in ENGLAND several years ago.

I agree with the first part of this sentence (although I'd be delighted if they prevented fox-hunting being legalised again, and for goodness sake, what a side-show just get on with ruling the country!) but actually the SNP had nothing to do with tuition fees in England, that was the Scottish labour MPs. It was of course an SNP administration who decided to charge English students who wanted to study in Scotland English-only prices.

Isitmebut Tue 14-Jul-15 11:25:17

muminhants1 ....

Firstly, PLEASE correct me if I am wrong, this was NOT 'legalising foxhunting', it was using a pack of hounds to do what two currently do, and the fox STILL has to be shot?

Secondly, who said that the SNP had anything to do with swinging the vote for English tuition fees it does not matter WHICH Scottish constituency Westminster MP's vote on English laws affecting only English people - the FACT IS, Scotland have been given powers to determine many of their own policies, others within the UK do not, why is that fair to the rest of us????

Isitmebut Tue 14-Jul-15 11:41:55

Shouldof ..... what world are you in?

All the SNP have done for years now is threaten, even now, when IF independent, you would have a huge budget deficit and cutting all of your services CURRENTLY paid for by the 'in the UK' Barnett formula - and the success of a Conservative led administration turning around an economy after 13-years of fat State socialism, other in Europe you wanted to join, only dream of.

Sturgeon/Salmond has threatened Cameron, time after time, even insisting that if the UK electorate gave the Conservatives a 40 seat majority, that the SNP would insist they did not form a government, thereby causing a huge disruption to our economy/recovery - yet you whine the SNP is being wronged for opposing fox hunting laws, Scotland current have? Guffaw.

How sad that the Scottish 'roar' so quickly turned into a French style 'whine'.

Clearly you wish to emulate the democratically empowered Greece, where the louder you whine, the more sympathetic your citizens needs are received by the people with the cash. Hmmm,

Isitmebut Tue 14-Jul-15 12:54:44

I just heard SNP's Angus Robinson w-h-i-n-e again on the Daily Politics, 'we have not been given any powers', 'we are second class MPs if can't vote on English only matters' - and that why they have gone BACK on their pre election statement to TRUST them they would not vote on English matters, because some English voters have asked them to.

Feeling cheated, all he wanted to get in at the end (after stating their majority is so small) was that 'a Tory government had been defeated'.

Pathetic man, as this proves that a Scottish Westminster SAS and the then 'oppose everything' Miliband Labour Party, together after May 2015 would have continued to concentrate more on attacking/defeating a Conservative government, rather than focus on the issues.

And THAT m'lud was the POINT of a Scottish MP attack on mild fox hunting legislation, as if they'd ever given a flying feck about foxes to date, they'd have changed their own legislation instead of spending their time whining for more powers they won't use.

Toclafane Tue 14-Jul-15 12:59:55

AIUI the SNP were planning to vote against because if the change in the law went through it would make it more difficult for them to tighten the law on hunting in Scotland and bring it at the least into line with England (which is their stated policy). So actually, I think they were well within their rights on this particular subject since the Tory proposals could be seen a spoilers against SNP policy in Scotland. I'm also delighted they did this because it was The Right Thing To Do.

Bubblesinthesummer Tue 14-Jul-15 13:02:43

I think she has played right into the hands of those that want EVEL and looks hypocritical given the laws on foxhunting in Scotland.

Plus Angus Roberts on has just been on daily politics talking about the vote and how it was 'to show the government what a small majority they have' and never mentioned foxes.

All political point scoring

ItMustBeBedtimeSurely Tue 14-Jul-15 13:05:47

A blinder of an own goal IMO. English votes for English laws legislation is a sure thing now, and will happen sooner.

Isitmebut Tue 14-Jul-15 13:05:55

"because if the change in the law went through it would make it more difficult for them to tighten the law on hunting in Scotland"

Why?

They have numerous different policies to what we have in England, did Labour or a Conservative government pass any legislative blocks on Scottish fox hunting changes, yet allowing them to set their own tax rates, free tuition, free prescriptions etc that I'd have thought were slightly more edgy?

Twinkie1 Tue 14-Jul-15 13:07:02

It just makes me think how unfair the system is and wish they'd push through the English only votes far quicker.

They are a petty bunch of arseholes who wave the flag of independence with one hand whilst holding out the other hand for the cash to keep bankrolling their economy and free education and prescriptions etc.

Cameron needs to grow a back bone.

DopeyDawg Tue 14-Jul-15 13:26:30

How DARE they?

SNP have a whole host of huge problems currently:

Police Scotland allowing two people to lie in a car crash for 3 days (both now dead) due to incompetence. PS has a really bad name now in Scotland.

The Named Persons scheme which is frankly a disaster.

The hideous state of Primary Education under 'curriculum for ex__cre__ment' (NS went to America to see how they 'turn around failing schools' - she can see plenty of failing schools on her doorstep)

The coach and horses they are trying to ride through the Scottish Justice system.

The One Party State approach...

But, hey, NS goes on American chat shows and tries to stir up a hornets nest about Fox Hunting (I am anti, btw). This is a typical 'we'll vote against the English because we CAN' type of playground stuff they spend most of their time on, and I can almost hear the chortles at Holyrood and Westminster because they are doing it in the English own back yard.

Complete hypocrisy anyway. I live in a part of Scotland where there is PLENTY foxhunting (and 'guidelines' are not obeyed either). There is plenty poisoning of endangered species of birds too sad The SNP have had plenty time to do something about this in their own backyard but they cant be bothered. This is not about protecting fluffy animals at all.

I hope EVEL gets a shot in the arm from this (and I loathe Cameron).

FFS! <and breathes>

prh47bridge Tue 14-Jul-15 16:30:30

Do you think this fox hunting vote will make it difficult for English votes for English laws moving forward

No. On the contrary, his makes EVEL a certainty.

In February Nicola Sturgeon said, "The SNP have a longstanding position of not voting on matters that purely affect England – such as foxhunting south of the border, for example – and we stand by that." The SNP has now abandoned that position and pledged to vote against a measure that would bring the law in England and Wales in line with Scotland.

The SNP is attempting to provoke a constitutional crisis. Their opposition to EVEL is in the same vein. Their motivation is to stoke up resentment in both England and Scotland in the hope this will allow them to win an independence referendum.

weeburrower1 Wed 15-Jul-15 15:25:30

Newsflash - Westminster isn't an English parliament, it's a UK parliament with each and every MP supposedly elected on an equal basis. We've just sat and watched every single proposed amendment to the Scotland Bill voted down by English MPs against the will and votes of almost every Scottish MP, and now you're moaning about Scottish MPS voting on fox hunting? Is it not a bit strange that nobody is pointing out the actual, real hypocrisy there and instead are actively perpetuating it?

Any 'resentment' is at its heart caused by asymmetrical devolution and won't be solved by EVEL. At this point only a dedicated English parliament/English regional parliaments are the answer. Creating two tiers of MPs in a UK parliament where almost 600 get to vote against the wishes of Scottish MPs on thimgs like the Scotland Bill and then cry foul when 50 odd Scottish MPS review their entirely voluntary position on voting in certain circumstances is only going to intensify the situation.

Looks to me like too many people want it all ways. Stay in the union but sit down and shut up? I don't think so.

Isitmebut Wed 15-Jul-15 15:42:51

What were the SNP proposed amendments to the Scottish Bill and why were they seen unreasonable and voted down?

And was that malarkey yesterday, with a Scottish Bill they maybe knew WOULD BE VOTED DOWN DUE TO THEIR DEMANDS, a continuation of the Scottish National Party gorilla campaign against the rest of the UK because they didn't get their referendum way?

The way I see it, a Scotland that ALREADY has the right to set many of its own policies, is throwing their toys out of the pram because England wants the same, and 56 SNP Westminster Sturgeon PROMISED could 'roar' to a Scottish 'me,me,me' agenda - are getting precisely, NOWHERE.

If this continues one has to wonder WHAT IS THE POINT of 56 SNP Westminster MPs shouting the same thing, when a more conciliatory approach from the more House trained previous cross party MPs, might have achieved more. Just saying.

Isitmebut Wed 15-Jul-15 15:47:57

Quell the "resentment", get back in the UK box, and understand that if you would have GAINED Independence, you'd be on the Road to Greece by now.

if I was Scottish and still in the UK I'd be looking at gobby Syriza in Greece and saying 'there but for the grace of Miliband, Clegg and Cameron.......'

Isitmebut Wed 15-Jul-15 15:49:51

(touch paper lit) lol

weeburrower1 Wed 15-Jul-15 15:57:40

Except the SNP has no issue with England deciding the same things for themselves. They just don't think the UK Parliament is necessarily the place to do it, yet have abstained on many England only votes over the years anyway. The policy areas they control in Scotland are decided by Westminster and English MPs outvoting Scottish ones as we've just seen with the Scotland Bill.

Remind me why it's ok for English MPs to vote down the Scotland Bill amendments against the wishes of the Scottish MPs but it's not ok for Scottish MPS to vote on fox hunting? Remind me why it's ok that the Leader of the House can assert in writing that education will be an England-only issue despite the direct impact on devolved budgets, but Scottish MPS can't vote on fox hunting?

If England wants the same, get it and stop moaning about it. That fox hunting is devolved in Scotland but NOT devolved in England is not the fault nor the responsibility of the SNP.

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