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Poroshenko says Ukraine ready for total war against Russia

(79 Posts)
claig Tue 18-Nov-14 22:05:46

I dismissed a lot of Poroshenko's and Yatsenyuk's statements in the past because they tended to be exaggerations and full of hyperbole, but this time I think it is real. I think they must have been told to go ahead.

"Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko today said he is ready for 'total war' against Russia as he claimed the crisis in eastern Europe is more serious than the threat from Islamic State.
...
'I am not afraid of a war with Russian troops,' he said.

'We are prepared for a scenario of total war.

'We don't want war, we want peace and we are fighting for European values.'

He told Germany's Bild newspaper the unfolding drama on the edge of the EU was more critical than the Islamic State defiance.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2838094/Ukrainian-president-says-country-ready-war-Russia-says-crisis-dangerous-spread-ISIS.html

Germany is usually the major restraining influence in conflict with Russia, but from what Merkel said the other day, I think everything has been decided and everyone is on board.

"In a foreign policy speech in Sydney on Sunday following the G20 summit, Merkel sounded deeply despondent about Putin’s policies and behaviour and gloomy about the prospects of forcing a strategic shift from the Kremlin.

“This is not just about Ukraine. It’s about Moldova, it’s about Georgia,” said Merkel. “If things carry on like this … we will need to raise the issue of Serbia, of the states in the western Balkans.”

It was the first time a European leader had warned that Putin was seeking to press Balkan states to his side in the worsening tug-of-war in Europe between Moscow and Brussels.

“The Ukraine crisis is truly not a regional affair,” she said, voicing incredulity that Putin’s campaign could take place 25 years after Europe’s division into two blocs ended with the fall of the Berlin Wall. “It affects us all … how can something like this happen in the middle of Europe? Old thinking about spheres of influence, trampling international law, must not succeed.”

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/17/european-leaders-fear-growth-russian-influence-angela-merkel-vladmir-putin

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/17/european-leaders-fear-growth-russian-influence-angela-merkel-vladmir-putin

WetAugust Tue 18-Nov-14 22:21:36

Germany I.e. The EU will drag us into this if we are not careful.

claig Tue 18-Nov-14 22:29:51

Ukraine can't succeed against Russia on their own so they will need help. How that will be done I don't know, but nothing can really be done without US help, so it looks like the US and the EU and Ukraine vs Russia.

I thought it was coming 2017-2018-2019, but itmay begin earlier than that. I hope not, but this time I believe what Poroshenko is saying.

It looked like Germany was not fully on board and was stopping escalation over sanctions etc under great pressure. But if it is the case that Germany is on board, then I think it will happen.

Isitmebut Wed 19-Nov-14 11:13:49

Whats this all about, yet MORE UKIP fear mongering Russian style propaganda AGAINST Europe, this time using Russia? UKIP really is the ‘negative campaigning’ pits.

The problem here is not the EU or even NATO (as correct me if I’m wrong, Ukraine is a member of neither), the PROBLEM is Farage’s hero Putin, ex KGB and old school Soviet, longing for the old U.S.S.R. days when Russia had an empire – who wants to be free to claim it back, state by state.

”Russia braces for long economic war with the West”
www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11221963/Russia-braces-for-long-economic-war-with-the-West.html

”Russia's central bank warns that capital outflows will reach $128bn this year and slashes its growth forecast to zero for 2015 as the ceasefire collapses in Ukraine.”

”The rouble soared 3pc despite the bad news after Mr Putin vowed to “take action” to stabilise the currency and denied any plans to impose capital controls. The rouble closed at 45.74 against the dollar, still down 32pc this year and clearly still in danger.”

It is Putin attempting to intimidate other world leaders with a show of force who ordered 4 Russian battleships to Australia waters awaiting his arrival by plane. It is Putin trying to intimidate NATO countries individually using the Russian military by air and sea.

“'Highly disturbing' Russian military strategy causing dangerous military encounters – report”
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/highly-disturbing-russian-military-strategy-causing-dangerous-military-encounters--report-9850549.html

“Russia is pursuing a “highly disturbing” military strategy resulting in almost 40 dangerously close encounters with Nato forces and civilian aircraft in just eight months, according to a new report.”

“London-based thinktank the European Leadership Network (ELN) said Cold War-style “brinkmanship” by Vladimir Putin’s air force was creating the risk of military escalation across the continent.”

“The intensity and gravity of incidents involving Russian and Western military and security agencies has increased since the annexation of Crimea in March, the report found.”

“It listed near-misses including violations of national airspace, emergency scrambles, narrowly avoided mid-air collisions, close encounters at sea and simulated bombing attacks stretching from the North Sea to the Baltic and Arctic regions and along the US coast.”

It was Putin who left Australia early, feeling very unloved by the rest of the world, who said he will NEVER STOP supporting the rebels in Ukraine.

And while fail Conservative MP Farage applauds Putin for being smart at every opportunity, a real Conservative will stand fast with Europe to confront tyranny – this time with economic sanctions that are working as harder for Russia on the receiving end of those sanctions and already reeling from a much lower OIL price, than for Europe.
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/david-cameron-compares-vladimir-putins-russia-to-nazi-germany-ahead-of-tense-meeting-9860264.html

Isitmebut Wed 19-Nov-14 12:00:00

Putin will be please however, when UKIP allows into parliament in 2015 a Labour led socialist coalition, that he need not fear a UK with a Trident nuclear deterrent - as apparently the threat from the old Russia's military, is no longer relevant - and no doubt Labour, the SNP, the Lib Dems and probably the Greens, would either scrap it, or never get one of those round 'to-its'.

WetAugust Wed 19-Nov-14 13:18:51

Tedious Isitmebut, just tedious.

Isitmebut Wed 19-Nov-14 13:34:16

Facts over scaremonger usually is, to a brace of purple minions.

WetAugust Wed 19-Nov-14 15:18:13

Fact - the EU is bunging money go Ukraine to groom them into being g EU friendly

It worked.

No wonder Russia is concerned at the possibility of the EU subsuming Ukraine.

It's like having a Communist China takeover of France. We'd be concerning too in that situation

EU starting wars

Isitmebut Wed 19-Nov-14 15:48:50

All I hear from UKIP is they support 'democracy', apart from a Conservative EU Referendum that is.

Wasn't it 'the people' who wanted to be closer to the EU than Russia, but their 'pro Russia elite' leader wanted to go in the opposite direction - and as were no longer 'the peoples party', got kicked out - so in technical terms, Russia got the hump, turned off the gas pipe to Ukraine and took back Crimea by force.

Hence the need for Ukraine in a dire financial way, has been helped the the U.S. and EU to keep their country going, rather than falling into Russia's hands.

Countries being split by old boundaries, ideology, or religion is NOT new, but Russia not only financing the rebels, are known to send their own troops and tanks in AGAINST the current government, rather than let it be sorted domestically, IS.

Anyhoo, it ain't an anti EU story, as the minions would have us believe.

Lweji Wed 19-Nov-14 15:52:41

I think a war against the West plays into Putin's hands for his total control of Russia and more.
He's essentially pushing for another Cold War.

WetAugust Wed 19-Nov-14 16:00:10

take a look at the Eu's published expenditure, as I did, and then tell me there has been no EU interference. the EU have been fermenting this.

Putin can have all the old Ussr back if he wants. Not worth a single Brutish soldier.

Isitmebut Wed 19-Nov-14 16:05:01

Lweji ... It looks that way, but I'm not so sure, as he really needs to trade, as energy prices he relies on so much are plummeting - put down to lower world demand and America's shale production.

When Scotland's Nats were telling us that thanks to oil (which brought in around £5 bil the previous year) they were 'one of the richest nations on earth', Brent Oil I believe was around $100 a barrel, whereas when I last looked it was around $78 a barrel - that is a huge fall for many countries who's 'cost price' is north of $90 and form national budgets on their annual oil/gas revenues.

Putin with very high domestic approval ratings, so he can literally get away with murder, so he has room to play his bare chest thumping hard man game, but when your currency falls 40% within a year - he will run out of Rouble capital, before political capital with the masses. IMO.

Isitmebut Wed 19-Nov-14 16:14:10

WetAugust ... economic sanctions rarely cause British service peoples lives, and the red army has quite a way to travel before it does, somehow getting past the Mayor of Calais.lol

I can understand why a Ukipper can't take a warning lesson from appeasement within Europe from nationalist movements starting in the 1930's - but lets just say that the world bowing to well 'ard mens threats and invading other countries with impunity,then and since, never ends well and Europe ends up getting sucked in anyway.

Isitmebut Wed 19-Nov-14 16:16:14

'No more wars in Europe', is one of the core pillars of the EU, and one of the better selling points. IMO

Lweji Wed 19-Nov-14 16:17:51

Isitmebut
But, if he implements Martial law or can blame the West for the troubles at home, then it's the make of an official dictator (as opposed to the unofficial dictator that he already is).

WetAugust Wed 19-Nov-14 16:18:04

he might rely on energy prices but WE rely on energy. I think I can see who has the trump card here.

We are so schizophrenic about Russia. We always need something to hate.

Lweji Wed 19-Nov-14 16:18:15

Maybe we should invite Russia to be part of the EU? smile

Isitmebut Wed 19-Nov-14 16:28:02

"We are so schizophrenic about Russia. We always need something to hate".

Unlike yourself and the EU, the Conservatives and Cameron, that is.

Hmmm .. I have asked Claig a few times if Russian, based on her (lack of) sense of humour, and all you two seem to want is anarchy in the UK, I wonder - as Cameron is well down Putin's Christmas list and an old Soviet would just love the Labour Party comrades of the 1960s & 70's back in power - what your true agenda is.

'Out there', but Ed looking to bring more Old Labour policies in, it would explain a lot.

“(Nov 2014) Nigel Farage: UKIP could do deal with Labour”
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30029004

“Farage backs Miliband for PM; UKIP wants Labour to win the next General Election because it fears Cameron could win an EU Referendum.”
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2793688/farage-backs-miliband-ukip-want-labour-win-election-fear-cameron-win-eu-referendum.html

claig Wed 19-Nov-14 16:43:38

Lweji, I don't think Putin wants war because Russia will probably lose against the US/EU etc, but he is being backed into a corner. The West hopes that economic pressure will topple him, but if it doesn't and if he doesn't cave in, then I think there will be war.

Here is Peter Hitchens

"Fresh from lecturing Vladimir Putin on international morality, David Cameron(the Victor of Libya, let it never be forgotten, as well as The Man Who Wanted to Back the Rebels in Syria Who Later Turned into ISIS, but luckily failed) is now warning that there is a coming world economic crisis which may wreck Britain's supposed recovery (see my blog of yesterday about being governed by people
...
By the way, what is Britain's direct interest in Ukraine, and with what armed forces do we presume to warn Russia? Once upon a time, we protected our own interests and had the resources to make our words count. Now we intervene in quarrels that are nothing to do with us, and lack the weapons or troops with which to back up our growls."

Listen to this speech in the European Parliament. It never ceases to amaze me how independent and unpuppetlike the speaker is. No one says what he says, they are not allowed to. Imagine if he gets on a TV debate for the election, he is likely to wipe the floor with some of his opponents.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjC6UhAM16Y

claig Wed 19-Nov-14 16:59:36

Hitchens' quotes are from his blog

hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/

WetAugust Wed 19-Nov-14 17:09:03

Lweji

Russia did apply to join NATO but was turned down

pluCaChange Wed 19-Nov-14 17:11:36

Ukraine is strategic for Russia because of coal and industry in the east, which is where Russian speakers are in the majority. Ukraine is strategic for the EU because it is a buffer against Russia.

There has been no military comeback against Russia for annexing Crimea except from Ukraine itself.

I think the EU will allow Ukraine to be partitioned...

DoctorTwo Wed 19-Nov-14 17:32:56

The coup in Ukraine was financed and cheerled largely by the US, purely to isolate Russia as Putin won't allow western corporations in to plunder their economy as they have the rest of the world. NATO gave assurances in the early 1990s that they would not expand into the former Soviet bloc, something that was a blatant lie.

Now that Russia and China, and Germany and China, are signing deals using local currencies as opposed to the US dollar it probably will see the end of the dollar as the world currency.

The US will use that to push for conflict as they view their country as having American Exceptionalism. They will use the excuse that Putin is expanding into Ukraine (with no evidence, though there are more satellites over this area than any other. Strange that...).

Germany doesn't want more sanctions as those that are in place have hit their economy, just as predicted by anyone with half a brain.

Lweji Wed 19-Nov-14 19:19:41

Wet, NATO is not the EU.

WetAugust Wed 19-Nov-14 19:21:30

I know that. I am just trying go show that this enmity is needless

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