Part 7: Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

[AndHarry]

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered

Thread 2 - Operation Protective Edge

Thread 3 - Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement

Thread 4 - Operation Protective Edge and the different views in Israel and the wider international community

Thread 5 - in which Operation Protective Edge came to an end and the discussion continued

Thread 6 - themes of the conflict, what happens next and how ordinary people can get involved

Welcome to Thread 7.

[TheHoneyBadger]

just a note thread 6 is also where some discussion of the russell tribunal was had and lots of links to witness testimonies and break downs of the legality of the situation were given.

for those just joining i would really recommend checking the extraordinary session of the russell tribunal on palestine called to discuss recent events. here there is video of witness testimonies and expert witnesses that is very helpful in understanding the legal and cultural context of israels policies.

[AndHarry]

Thank you THB.

[AndHarry]

As an interesting contrast, this BBC report says that less than 10% of bombing missions against IS actually release bombs because when they get to their target there is too much risk of hitting civilians. The exact pre-Kobane figures are that of the first 949 missions, only 90 resulted in attacks.

[QnBoudi]

And here we go again ... www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/17/teenage-boy-shot-dead-israeli-troops-west-bank . My boy's 13. I can't imagine that life. I'm desperately trying to hold on to the sentiments of 'unity, charity and humanity' as expressed by the families of Henning and Haines but the competing reactions of anger, frustration, sense of injustice and downright depression are making it so hard.

[Shlep]

Joining in, as a newbie.

[TheHoneyBadger]

it is hard. the closer you look the more awful stuff you see and the thing with this particular area of inhumanity is the horrible realisation of the world, and particularly the west's, complicity with it and profit from it.

the whole 'why not look at syria, what about IS' etc posting overlooks this key bit.

[AndHarry]

Hi Shlep :)

[Yruapita]

It seems that children are the target for their pin-point operations. So sick of this. The Palestinian children resist the occupation by throwing stones at tanks, the Israelis open fire and kill them. Yet another dead Palestinian child to add to the list, who cares right!

[TheHoneyBadger]

potentially those children have all lost beloved family members, homes and god knows what else in recent months and they pick up a stone and throw it and the proportionate response is to open fire on them. because they're all snakes right? all terrorists?

the public discourse and the rhetoric spouted by politicians and newspapers MATTERS. they may not have machine guns in their hands but they may as well pull the trigger in many cases.

(i am respectfully 'trying' to avoid mentioning blood but it is not easy when so much blood is being shed and so many people are party to it)

[AndHarry]

Interesting article from the Jerusalem Post about settlers in Jerusalem and the impact on any eventual agreement.

[Springheeled]

Apparently a five year old run over by a settler today.

There's something deeply wrong with these settlers imo

[Kelly1814]

Hello everyone, nice to find this new thread. Tomorrow night I'm going to an event for the PCRF. Palestinian Children's Relief Fund. They do amazing work and the stories they have to tell break your heart. I'm just catching up on the links posted above.

[AndHarry]

Another interesting article from The Guardian about voting in Jerusalem and 'permanent residents' vs citizens of Israel.

[TheHoneyBadger]

from the JP article, "Israel’s image is not determined by smoke and mirrors, but by the reality of its actions" Bezopt!!

[TheHoneyBadger]

and from the guardian article, "most Palestinians in "undivided Jerusalem" are legally classified as "permanent residents", rather than citizens of Israel. As such, they do not enjoy the right to vote in national elections. An estimated 13,000 Palestinians of all ages, out of a total Palestinian population of 293,000 (37% of Jerusalem's total population), have received Israeli citizenship.".

but sure, tell us again how jews and palestinians enjoy the same rights in israel people whose families have lived their for eons are not citizens and have no right to vote, whereas some 20 year old russian who happens to have jewish heritage turned up last year can have citizenship and vote?

the facts and the spin are SO FAR APART that it is staggeringly obvious to anyone who cba to look.

[AndHarry]

On the face of it, it does look inexcusable. However, I think a big part of that is that Palestinians don't want to be Israeli citizens, they want to be citizens of a Palestinian state. Obviously if they were all Israeli citizens they would have a more powerful voice calling for that change but I can see why they wouldn't want to make such a symbolic acceptance of the status quo.

The part that is totally inexcusable is the difference in the provision of civic services between Jewish and Palestinian neighborhoods.

[TheHoneyBadger]

aka apartheid. basically. it can be dressed up any way you like and spun to be a 'choice' (god love the rhetoric of neo liberalism) but this is a two caste system with totally different basic rights (to vote for example) and totally different shares of the investment of resources.

a legal, democratic, economic and military caste system.

[AndHarry]

Possibly. I don't know how 'permanent residents' can make the choice to become citizens, or even if there is such a choice, although the article implies that there is.

[TheHoneyBadger]

i don't know - if you remember the series of films linked to back on thread one i think there were arabs with papers showing ownership of their homes over several generations being turfed out onto the streets to make way for new immigrants who happened to be of jewish origin.

don't know if they were citizens or residents and doubt it would have made much difference to them given legal ownership meant nothing.

[TheHoneyBadger]

it would be nice if they could at least move to giving everyone the status of 'human being' with the subsequent human rights. if you can't even be allowed that category the trimmings don't make much difference.

[PigletJohn]

I understand that one of the reasons why Israel will not define its borders, is that people living within them might then be entitled to citizenship, even if they are second-class people.

It is vital to Israel not to allow Palestinians voting rights sufficient to have an influence.

[TheHoneyBadger]

unless they've 'cleansed' them down to an acceptably small minority cowed by having lost nearly everyone they ever knew. given the holocaust led to the brutal military inhumane force that is israel though it doesn't bode well for what the decades of brutality upon palestinians may eventually result in.

[TheHoneyBadger]

israel is kind of the living proof of what happens when you brutalise a people so crushingly. and the cycle goes on with their crushing of palestinians.

it's like the cycle of abuse with families.

except in this case invested parties outside add fuel to the fire because it suits their purposes to keep things fucked up and unresolved. i doubt israel was 'given' out of concern for the jews, more likely the usual opportunistic manipulation of geo politics that would support the devil himself if it meant grabbing a few more resources or destabilising an area of the world that you want to keep unstable for your gains.

israel is founded on evil really. no i'm not saying israelis are evil or jews are evil etc - i'm saying how it came to be (via the holocaust) and those who were keen to use that cause to further their own and those actions that have happened since are evil. if we're going for biblical terms it's the sins of the father passing on and on and on. not as in 'god punishes children for what their father's did' but as in evil replicates and passes on and on and on unless there is a massive, seismic resistance and willed full stop.

instead though there are... not sure what you call them, protagonists maybe? those who keep adding fuel to the fire and kindling the perpetuation of that evil.

[TheHoneyBadger]

and realistically if there had been no israel there would be no IS - which is not to say categorically there shouldn't have been an israel but to acknowledge the chain of events and tensions and brutalities that can trace a common genealogy through history.

the west will never leave the middle east alone and any criticism of the current middle east has to take into account that we have NO idea what it would like if it hadn't been subjected to endless western interference.

it's interesting (coincidental or otherwise) that one part of the world is so central to both the cultural (via religion) and economic (via resources, namely oil) fate of humankind. those factors combined are like the ultimate powder keg i guess

good job it's 'blood' analogies i'm having to avoid rather than fire ones eh?

[AndHarry]

I've been wondering what the US' interest actually is in Israel. Why does it matter to them so much?